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immblueversion
Topic
04:33:29 PM Jun 1st 2014
edited by 96.250.231.176
I'm looking to overhaul the character pages for Fairy Tail. Lately they've been getting kind of messy. Here's what's on my to-do list:

  • Create a general page for Fairy Tail that lists tropes about the guild as a whole.
  • Renaming the Fairy Tail guild pages "Main Members" (for "Team Natsu"), "Major Members" (for the Masters, S-Class Wizards, and the Tenrou/Sirius Island guys), and "Minor Members" (for the rest).
  • Renaming "Other Guilds" to "Official Guilds", and splitting it into two pages: "Before Sirius Island" and "After Sirius Island". Because that page is big, and Sirius Island is a good cut-off point.
  • Splitting the Balam Alliance dark guilds into their own pages. They're also big enough. (Remember, the official spelling is "Tartaros", not "Tartarus". If I'm mistaken and the Kodansha USA spelling is really "Tartarus", please tell me.)
  • Speaking of which, use official, Kodansha USA name spellings and terminology, NOT the Fairy Tail Wiki (i.e., "wizard" instead of "mage", unless the word "mage" is in the trope name like Child Mage). If Kodansha isn't available, use Funimation. And if that's not available, use Crunchyroll. Use fan translations only if no official translations are available.
  • Adding context. Far too many of these tropes are guilty of having Zero-Context Examples; it especially irks me how some examples say things like, "This guy makes Minerva of all people crap themselves," or "Ticking off ''Mirajane was probably a bad idea," as if readers already know who Minerva or Mirajane are.
  • Setting a spoiler policy: anything regarding Zeref, Acnologia, the future characters, and any deaths or plot twists in episodes or chapters following what is encompassed in the pre-hiatus run of the anime (episodes 1-175) must be spoiler tagged. Everything else is Spoilers Off.
  • You can probably guess that some people just don't follow the spoiler policy. Let's change that by keeping all spoilers unmarked until we can find a way to use them more properly.
  • There is a gratuitous overuse of markups, and it gets. Really. ANNOYING!!!!! Examples such as these (the Dark Guilds page is a pretty bad offender) should be written more compellingly.
  • Getting rid of those "infoboxes". I vaguely recall adding them because I thought they'd be of some kind of use, but now I think they're an eyesore. They're filled with trivial info (like where a character's guild mark is, or spells/weapons characters only ever use once), while some of the more important information can easily be written out in the character descriptions.
  • Cleaning up any instances of natter or chapter-by-chapter developments, as well as messy grammar and spaces, and the fact that periods. Are not. Commas.
immblueversion
01:03:23 PM Sep 26th 2014
edited by 96.250.231.176
For a while now, I've been working on sandboxes to make the changes listed above. I'll put them here for the sake of convenience.

immblueversion
11:20:35 AM Oct 3rd 2014
Okay, I went ahead and split the pages as they are. However, the content issue still remains, so don't delete those sandboxes just yet. This is just the first step in the overhaul.
SatoshiBakura
03:04:38 PM Jan 2nd 2015
Hello! If you're still around, I will offer my support in the second phase of the revamp.
SatoshiBakura
12:03:46 PM Jan 3rd 2015
edited by 71.171.84.163
Also, the Other Characters page looks like it's going to get to long soon. When should it be split?

Proposed split pages: A page for the Fiore Kingdom, a page for the Magic Council, a page for the dragons, and the page for others.

Another idea I have is moving Zeref to the Tartaros page. Even though he's not directly affiliated with the guild, he still seems rather associated with it. Actually, move all of Zeref's demons to the page and make the page about his demons as a whole, not just about Tartaros (though it will be the main attraction). How about "Tartaros and other Etherious" (Etherious are the demons created by Zeref).
immblueversion
03:09:05 PM Jan 5th 2015
edited by 96.250.231.176
What's this? A visitor? What a rarity! Anyway, thanks very much for your assistance (and I know what an Etherious is, though I believe the official translation by Kodansha is "Aetherious").

So, you can go ahead and split the FK, MC, and dragons off into their own pages. As for the rest, the original idea I had was to put Zeref, Acnologia, and the Eclipse characters on a "Spoilers" page. But then I figured Zeref and Acnologia were far too prominent by now. After reading your proposal, here's what I think we should do:

  • We make a page called "Zeref and Demons", and give that page three sections: One for Zeref himself, one for Tartaros, and one for Zeref's other demons (Lullaby, Deliora, and Doriath).
  • We make another page called "Eclipse", and use that for the characters who used the Eclipse Gate: Future Lucy, Future Rogue, and the seven dragons (we add them to the "Dragons" page, but link each of them to this one). Naturally, this will be a spoiler-heavy page.

Once you make the pages, I'll make new sandboxes whenever I can and do my best to spruce them up. You're free to make edits on them as well; I'll link them to the first post of this discussion. I'm sure you've read that I'm not too fond of the way the pictures are laid out, how the examples and headers are written, how spoiler tags make holes in certain sentences, and especially those infoboxes. It really has been overwhelming trying to write and rewrite these things all by myself, so you have no idea how much I appreciate the help.

I also tried my hand at making new, albeit smaller pictures. If you've seen my sandboxes, many of them have 175x200 pictures with black borders 2 pixels thick (for characters with pre- and post-timeskip appearances, I merged them into one picture file). This was mainly because there are a lot of characters who have very little info on them, so giving them huge pictures on the right side of the screen (where they're supposed to be) would probably shove the pictures beneath them down and out of place. But I worry if I've made them too small.

On another note, you may have noticed that I've put all the anime-only characterizations of Oracion Seis in the "Anime Only" characters sandbox. This is because I feel they're different enough to get their own pages, and they seem relatively separate from their post-timeskip manga depictions, despite the anime technically being canon. So I say we keep those things to that page.

And finally...I say we just forgo spoiler tags altogether. Put a warning in every page's main header.

Again, thank you so much for the help. Let's go ahead and make this something people won't regret reading.
SatoshiBakura
03:41:37 PM Jan 5th 2015
edited by 71.171.84.163
I'm glad to be an assistance! I actually did the same thing on the Yu-Gi-Oh! character page, as it was incredibly disorganized (there were pages for "Main Antagonists" and "Minor Antagonists").

In response to what you've said, I agree with the whole Zeref and his demons page. I honestly think that Zeref being placed in "Other" under the catigory "Unsorted" is rather jarring considering how big his role is becoming.

As with the Eclipse Project, the page would be too small with just FL, FR, and the 7 dragons. Since the Fiore Kingdom is working on it, I propose that they be added to the page as well with two sections: the Fiore Kingdom and the time travelers. I'm still unsure whether or not the 7 dragons actually should be moved to that page or kept with the rest of the dragons.

I'll move the information from the info boxes into the main description. As for pictures, I honestly prefer pictures to be larger. I can see this comes from trying to scale down a JPG into a PNG, but I honestly just prefer to find large PNG images. It just looks better. But if it goes over, I'll see what I can do.

I prefer just to have anime only characters in the "Anime Only" section without all of the Neo Oracion Seis members that were in the manga, as it's simpler that way. Having a sheet for anime only characterizations for a character that did appear in the manga is too complex.

F-ing ditch spoilers. They're pointless.
immblueversion
04:08:55 PM Jan 5th 2015
Then again, wouldn't having individual pages for the Fiore Kingdom, Magic Council members, and the dragons also be too small? Keep in mind that the majority of characters in each of those categories are pretty minor, and don't have a whole lot of tropes going for them...
jboone93
04:10:27 PM Jan 5th 2015
you could always compromise. Big pictures for important characters, small pictures for one off characters or characters who sections are mostly descriptions of appearance. Most of Quattro Cerebus or Mermaid Heel for instance.

My two cents is keep the Oracion Seis together. It would be to confusing to look for tropes pertaining to one character in two different places. The seven dragons should stay on the dragon page because that is were people will probably first look for them.
SatoshiBakura
04:11:41 PM Jan 5th 2015
edited by 71.171.84.163
Good point. I'll just do the Eclipse Project page (Kingdom and travelers), and redo the Tartaros page for now.

Edit: And done! Please post reactions. If I missed anything, please tell me. I changed my mind and decided to split off "The Magic Council" and "Dragons" from "Others".
jboone93
06:13:56 PM Jan 5th 2015
edited by 199.48.195.205
Is there a point to having spoiler characters on the eclipse page if we just announce who they are. Why not change future lucy's folder to Hooded girl and Future Rogues folder to something similar? just my two cents. otherwise that page looks good.
immblueversion
06:27:04 PM Jan 5th 2015
Hmm... I really don't know what to think about the "Eclipse Project" page... It just doesn't seem like the most efficient way to categorize these characters. For one, the Hungry Wolf Knights aren't actually involved with the project.

But then I had another thought after recalling something early in the manga: we can put the Fiore Kingdom and Magic Council on the same page, and call it "Government". The dragons get their own page (which may not be that small based on what I have in mind), and Future Lucy and Rogue stay on the "Other Characters" page.

As for the Zeref page, it's now gotten as big as the Other Characters page was. Perhaps it's best to keep the Tartaros members to their own page, since they're a sizable subcategory to this page. I mean, there's even a sub-subcategory in the form of the Nine Demon Gates. And depending on how the plot unfolds, we may even be able to keep E.N.D. on Zeref's page, considering it has outlived its own guild. (Oh, and you forgot Doriath from Succubus Eye.)
SatoshiBakura
03:39:45 AM Jan 6th 2015
edited by 71.171.84.163
Yeah, I was thinking of doing a Government page at first, but I wasn't sure how close the Kingdom and the Council were, so I held back. I will make a sandbox page and respond to replies.

Fairy Tail Government

I'll bring back the Tartaros page, and for now, E.N.D. will stay on that page, since he's technically the guild master. I'm not sure what to do about Doriath though, since he is the only listed member in Succubus Eye.
SatoshiBakura
04:00:50 PM Jan 7th 2015
With the new page up, I will redo the character sheet format soon. Also people, Big Bad and Arc Villain are not mutally exclusive. That means that they can both be on a character's sheet. People seem to believe that Big Bad means "overall villain" when it actually means "character who is causing the conflict". This is one of the reasons why I made the Overarching Villain trope. I'm currently correcting this problem.
Mizerous
01:53:54 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by Mizerous
Erm does someone have to redo the Tartaros Character Sheet because there were a few edits I would have to remake in that case >_>

Edit: Ehh I say keep the magic info about characters but use it in a floatbox style. Actually I'll do some of the edits and remake the Tartaros character page.
immblueversion
05:15:34 PM Jan 9th 2015
I don't like the floatbox or infobox, because from what I understand, images are supposed to be on the righthand side of the page, and I can't seem to get the floatboxes on the left. That, and most of the important information they contain can just as easily be conveyed in the headers and trope lists.

And the reason I have a sandbox for Tartaros is because of several typos, misused tropes, abuse of markups to convey "huge" plot details, and instances of ungiven context that would take all day to fix.
jboone93
05:17:48 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by jboone93
speaking of Tartaros, what happened to that page? It went from a rather well done page to literally bare-bones. Is there a copy of the old info to put in?
immblueversion
05:19:54 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by immblueversion
You see? That is why I made a sandbox. It's also partly why I was working on it on my own...
Mizerous
05:26:43 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by Mizerous
I got a Tartaros page in the works right now. Using some of the sandbox while adding in some of my own work.

Edit: Also did GH, OS, and Sabertooth sections with the new info format.
immblueversion
05:48:13 PM Jan 9th 2015
I just want to say that I'd feel comfortable if you didn't delete the sandboxes until you've discussed them with me. And also, we're using official Kodansha translations for manga characters and the like, not unofficial Fairy Tail Wiki translations. Official names take precedence over fan names whenever applicable.
Mizerous
05:53:37 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by Mizerous
Oh my mistake I won't edit anymore of them sorry :(
immblueversion
06:12:05 PM Jan 9th 2015
No, you can edit the sandboxes. It's just...well, I would've appreciated it if the actual Tartaros page itself wasn't erased and redone either. I was using the tropes on that page as a template for the sandboxes so I knew what needed improvement. Then, once the sandboxes were all relatively complete and consistent with one another, I would do a mass copy/paste over all the official pages, then delete the sandboxes. That was the original plan. Now...I don't even know what I should do. I've been so used to working at my own pace (even if it seemed like nothing was getting done) that, now that everything's moving so fast and radically, it's all really overwhelming.
Mizerous
06:13:46 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by Mizerous
Well I don't want to make things worse so it would be a good idea for me to leave it alone.
jboone93
06:22:51 PM Jan 9th 2015
Editing is fine. Edit away. Just change existing stuff, not delete everything to start over.
immblueversion
06:26:07 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by immblueversion
I really don't want to make you feel like the bad guy, but I can't think of what to say. Sorry...

On top of that, the new design for TV Tropes has really thrown me off, getting rid of quite a few helpful conveniences. Before, you could tell how many characters were in a page by just looking at a number on the lower left-hand corner of the page. Now that's gone, and if it's still around, I sure as hell can't find it. Also, there was an indicator showing whenever someone else was editing and when they would be done. Now, nothing.

So much change, not enough get-used-to-it-iveness... I just want to forget about the whole thing. >.<
Mizerous
06:32:23 PM Jan 9th 2015
You're not trust me besides I made a few errors I need to fix in other pages. I can just talk about it in the Tartaros discussion page so you're fine immablue.
immblueversion
08:38:43 PM Jan 9th 2015
edited by immblueversion
You know, when I said it was possible to write the important information from those infoboxes in the character headers...I meant the "important" important information. That is, the stuff that actually matters when describing the character. Leave out the trivial stuff, like what color their guild marks are or what spells/weapons they only ever use once in a story arc that happened four years ago. Let the tropes do the talking about stuff like that, if it's notable enough to fit.
Mizerous
11:21:30 PM Jan 9th 2015
Ah okay I will do that now.
SatoshiBakura
05:09:05 PM Jan 14th 2015
Finally managed to log back in. Now I will make comments on the changes.

  • Tartaros: Mizerous, please don't do that again. That said, I did remember that I temperarily moved the content to the Zeref page, so I will retrieve it through there.
  • Removal of the Info: Honestly do not support that. When I incorporated the information in the info boxes into the main description, I was doing it similar to the Yu-Gi-Oh! character page. Even if it is trivial, I don't think the information could hurt. It definitely helps, and I feel like it should be added back.
serpentchan
Topic
09:10:47 PM Jun 12th 2013
Since the official translation went with the name Sirius Island, I think the Tenrou Group page might need to be renamed.
immblueversion
Topic
09:14:37 AM Nov 9th 2012
As you may have noticed, I've rearranged the character pages yet again. But now I have an issue with character name spellings. As I understand it, the manga includes "official" name spellings provided by Hiro Mashima himself. Several of the earlier manga volumes include a note from Mashima explaining this. As of late, however, the latest manga volumes do not contain such a note, and as such, sites such as the Fairy Tail Wiki do not count the name spellings in such these as "official" because they cannot verify if they are.

Granted, it has occurred to me that not everyone owns the manga volumes released by Del Rey and Kodansha USA, and rely on the words of others online for such information. But to me, disregarding the translations given by companies such as Del Rey, Kodansha USA, Crunchyroll, and Funimation seems a bit limiting. I know the fanmade names are the ones many are familiar with, but does that make the other names any less qualified to be used, regardless of whether they were given by Hiro Mashima?
lu127
11:04:37 AM Nov 9th 2012
edited by lu127
Official translations must be used where available and are by default to be used over fanmade ones. Fanmade translations should be used only if there are no official ones.
immblueversion
08:35:19 AM Nov 10th 2012
In that case, considering Fairy Tail is primarily released in manga format, the translations used by the manga's licensors (Del Rey and Kodansha USA) should be used here regardless of whether or not Hiro Mashima says he gave them.

Crunchyroll and Funimation also have licenses for the anime, so I figure the names of characters who have not yet appeared in Kodansha USA's licensed manga material should be taken from the officially licensed subtitles (mainly from Crunchyroll, since they release the anime as they're aired in Japan and are further ahead than Funimation).

I was concerned mainly because whenever I try to change the names to these official translations, one troper by the username of "boo1348" keeps reverting them back to the ones used by the Fairy Tail Wiki, where names from officially licensed material are only used if Hiro Mashima says he uses them; in other words, quite a few characters on the FT Wiki are still known by fanmade names.
gaga4badmusic
10:49:55 AM May 17th 2013
Is this just for character names, or are locations handled the same way? Tenrou Island's name changed when the volume including it came out but I wasn't sure if it should he altered here or not.
immblueversion
Topic
09:24:26 AM Dec 9th 2011
edited by immblueversion
I'm thinking the list of characters in Fairy Tail is getting too complex to simplify it as "members of Fairy Tail," "villains," and "other characters." I think the pages should be organized and added to in this manner (all the tabs represent folders within each page):

  • Fairy Tail (all the members of Fairy Tail):
    • Team Natsu
    • Master & S-Class
    • Other members
    • New members
    • Former members
  • Official Guilds (all the official guilds in the series)
    • Phantom Lord
    • Blue Pegasus
    • Lamia Scale
    • Quatro Cerberus
    • Cait Shelter
    • Sabre Tooth
  • Dark Guilds (all the dark guilds in the series)
    • Oracion Seis
    • Grimoire Heart
    • Eisenwald
    • Naked Mummy
    • Raven Tail
  • Other (everyone else)
    • Magic Council
    • Crime Sorciere
    • Tower of Heaven
    • Edolas
    • Exceeds
    • Dragons
    • Celestial Spirits
    • Others