Discussion Characters / DragonAgeInquisitionNonPlayableCharacters

First: non-YMMV tropes are not allowed on the YMMV page, so I'm removing it from there just out of necessity.

Second: Your analogy/comparison has nothing to do with the original. "[Non-existent personal moral concept] has yet to find you" has nothing to with "[Real person] has yet to show [behavior]". One is a personal concept that the person believes exists and is arguing "may have yet" to find a person who doesn't believe in it. The other is an observation that a real person isn't doing a specific thing.

The reason it's condescending is because she's assuming that her moral standards (faith) hasn't "yet found" another character. The sentence by default sets up her moral position as absolute (i.e., faith in a higher power) which has "not found" another character.

Man, put it back. This is textbook Genre Blindness.

Well, on top of the whole entry being a little too vitriolic and making it out as though the mages had turned into a bunch of zombies droning "It. Is. Fine. We. Are. Fine. End. The. Blight. Tevinter. Rules.", I'm not sure if this counts as Genre Blind. She didn't run upstairs in a serial killer's house. She resorted to desperate measures under the conviction that she and everything she'd pledged her life to defend was doomed. Just because Erimond details the whole plan for you doesn't mean he allowed her to know enough to figure it out.

1. What she noticed is that they were a little different from before, and considering they're sacrificing their comrades to summon demons, that's reasonable. She can tell they aren't abominations or ghouls (which they're not), and that scale of blood magic compulsion is beyond a single person. How would she jump from "Erimond taught us a ritual to bind demons" to "He is capable of using this ritual to bind every single Warden who uses it to the will of an incredibly powerful demon backing the first darkspawn" with the evidence of "my men are acting a little strangely after obeying an order to murder their fellows and knowing they're all going to die very soon"? Obviously she made the jump to "Erimond might be screwing us," and obviously the explanation he gave and the evidence she found (and the pressure she was under) was enough to convince her it was worth taking that risk. Remember that she's not acting rationally. She hears the Calling, and believes it. She's very afraid.

2. Sophia Dryden did the same. Fear, desperation, pride, obligation, a semi-unspoken rule among the Wardens that "anything goes if it will advance the cause", and a mage promising an easy way out (even if he's a blood mage from Tevinter - Wardens do what they must, and that includes using blood magic, with which they have a long and storied history)? The main difference here is that the protagonist arrives at a crucial moment, not decades after the harm had been done. Plus, why would she think that anyone would willingly aid the Blight?

3. Executing Wardens who spoke out was quite possibly a matter of keeping the secrets of the Order as much as it was to silence dissent. Also, demons turn up and attack people if you disrupt the Veil, and there was a lot of disruption going on.

4. Really? Is there evidence she knew Corypheus was out of his prison? Very few Wardens knew he existed, even those of rank. No one knew that Corypheus = Elder One until the attack on Haven, and by that time the Wardens had been missing for a while. With the whole continent plunged into warfare, how would they get the news?

5. What she decides is to halt her last, most desperate plan, for which she'd just sacrificed one of her oldest friends, on your word. Not even others of the Order could do that. It's less the mounting evidence than it is the Inquisitor's powers of persuasion. And it was enough for Erimond to scuttle the plan. Doubt can be crucial.

Here's what I think would work better: Dirty Business, Do Not Go Gentle, Locked Out of the Loop, Despair Gambit...

If it does go back, it needs to be much, much shorter and point out that desperation makes a person blind. As it is, it sounds as though she's just brain-dead.

Okay, Nano Moose, you're making excuses. You're attempting to justify the presentation of a story by story logic. For example, I'm not going to answer a question like "Why would she believe anyone would aid the Blight" or "How would they get the news about Corypheus" because they're irrelevant. You're using the logic of the story to DEFEND the logic of the story, which is no better than making excuses for Bond Villian Stupidity by asking "Well why would he believe Bond could escape?". That's an irrelevant question.

That said, Id like a bit more consensus before a decision is reached, if Zephyr still agrees with me

I agree with King Zeal. Clarel sided with a transparently evil manipulator and was far too eager to get her hands bloody. Let's contrast Fiona with Clarel; I think this will illustrate my point better. The rebel mages are holed up in Redcliffe, fearing a final Templar push, weakened after years of war, and infiltrated by Venatori agents who used time travel to get there when the mages were most vulnerable. Then comes Alexius, with an offer too good to be true, and then local Fereldan nobility like Arl Wulff pressures them into accepting emigration to Tevinter. It's a desperate and stupid move, but Fiona, acting on what she knew, tried to save her mages how she could, and when she heard that mages would be cannon fodder for Tevinter, she immediately protested. And to be honest? This plan would have likely gone without a single hitch if Alexius were not Venatori; a secret cult that not many know about this early in the story.

Clarel, on the other hand, hears the mass Calling and immediately turns to Erimond's suggestion of binding demons to her own Grey Wardens, slaughtering her way through her own ranks to fuel the blood magic spells, and handing over several mages to be mind-controlled into helping Corypheus kill the Divine. She never once questions that Erimond might actually be manipulating her; it takes a siege, a bloody battle, a standoff, and a fake Archdemon to sway her. In contrast, she tries to arrest the eminently more reasonable and trustworthy Stroud/Alistair/Loghain for their dissent. It's mind-bogglingly stupid and short-sighted, no matter which way you spin it.

Clarel is a Warden, not a Circle mage. They get their hands dirty. Fiona wanted to protect her people; Clarel's goal is to defeat the Blight no matter what. Of course it sounds horrible and stupid when you compare those two, because they're completely different people with completely different goals. "In war, victory. ... In death, sacrifice." The whole point of the quest is to prove how a group prepared to do anything to win might be manipulated to...do anything.

I concede she may indeed have been Genre Blind, but it wasn't pure stupidity, which is how the entry makes it sound. It may have been short-sighted, but she was thinking in the short-term because she thought that was all she had. She didn't look at a bunch of slack-jawed Warden mages and a pile of Warden corpses and say "Yep, this was definitely a good idea. More blood!" She was suspicious and doubtful. She did question Erimond's motives. It just wasn't enough. She's better compared to Alexius - using insanely dangerous magic out of desperation with a very dubious ally because the alternative is allowing what she values most to be destroyed, except in her case, it was the whole world and her whole order was hearing "YOU'RE ALL GOING TO DIE ANYWAY" in their heads. Loghain/Alistair/Stroud are single Wardens, and only one of them is of any rank. We're inclined to trust them because they're familiar characters. She is not. (Plus, Alistair is templar-trained to be suspicious of any magic and Loghain is disgraced and shunned.)

"...handing over several mages to be mind-controlled into helping Corypheus kill the Divine..." Did she actually "hand them over" or did they just get beguiled away by Corypheus without her knowing and then die in the Breach and ensure she'd never know? Honestly, her knowledge of the freedom/involvement of Corypheus isn't "story logic", it's crucial to your point.

We know what the point of the quest was, and we know that the point of Wardens is that they're prepared to do anything. That has nothing to do with Clarel's Genre Blindness. That point is even more irrelevant because no mage belongs to a "Circle" anymore anyway. All mages are now "free" and likewise have about as many rules and restrictions binding them as the Wardens.

Further, if you're arguing against people calling her "purely stupid", then you're in a completely different argument than what we've had here. No one has said anything about her being stupid. This is entire conversation is about Genre Blindness (which, yes, can be related to stupidity, but no one here said that). The entire problem here is that despite how she questioned and suspected Erimond's motives, she still did nothing significant about it. She was still binding her mages even though she knew something was wrong with them. She did nothing to look into the matter herself after asking Erimond to come clean. She was still moments away from binding herself into a ritual which, as we just said, she had suspicions about. Despite her misgivings, even when the Inquisition comes in and tells her "Wait, this is a trap", none of that previous suspicion matters. She still takes Erimond's word over yours. Even when you finally "convince" her, you don't "convince" her and she's still hem-hawing.

I mean come ON dude. You cannot have a more blatant case of blindness than this. She flat out ignores every red flag that tells her this is a bad idea, listening only to Erimond and her own desperation.

It's still who they are, how they've been raised, and what informs their decisions. And you want me to quote? "Mind-bogglingly stupid." It's right up there.

That is what I've been arguing. That was why I removed the entry. Because it makes out as though she didn't question anything about Erimond, as though he'd been having her mages make silly faces behind her back, as if she was totally aware there was a weird misshapen tall guy giving Erimond his orders and fine with it. She did. He wasn't. She wasn't. To say so is straight up lying to make her sound like a complete idiot. Erimond didn't get fed up with her "hem-hawing," he tried to cut his losses by killing Clarel and the Herald. The entry, as it was, smacked of "This character is stupid because they were unaware of everything the audience is aware of!"

She wasn't even binding the mages personally. They bound themselves on her orders.

EDIT: Let me offer an alternative phrasing of the example: "Even without the benefit of hindsight, accepting the help of a Tevinter magister when apparently freely offered is very unwise." It's more concise, it covers whatever permutation or interpretation of the arc a player might have, and it doesn't throw around all that hyperbole. The rest of the character entry covers her motivations and the specifics well enough. Is that acceptable?

I'm back after the holidays.

I never said "mind-bogglingly-stupid". The other poster did, but that has nothing to do with the entry into Genre Blindness as I have written it. This is not about her being smart or stupid, but genre-blind.

It doesn't matter if she did question anything about Erimond. The entry as written acknowledges that she did so, but that actually makes it WORSE, because that means she willfully ignored all the signs which pointed at this being a terrible idea. For example, if you talk to Alistair (or I would imagine any of the Warden Allies), they tell you that the moment they questioned the blood magic bindings the mages (you know, the ones she thought something was fishy with) immediately turned hostile toward him. Why wasn't THAT a red flag? She already knew that they were acting strangely, and she still took their side when they turned hostile toward the last dissenter.

What about the fact that, despite Alistair possibly being King of Ferelden with tainted blood (but never once speaks of the Calling), as well as the fact that we're never told that she even once tried to contact Weisshaupt for their opinion on this matter.

And yes, Erimond DID get tired of her "hem-hawing". The exact words he says when he turns on her are "Perhaps I should bring in a more reliable ally". That is literally getting tired of her hem-hawing.

And I have to decline your alternative. It's needlessly vague about details on what made her decision Genre Blind as opposed to all the characters who make mistakes in this game. She didn't just make mistakes. She REPEATEDLY made extremely myopic decisions for the purposes of the plot. That is Genre Blindness by definition.

Also, I never said she was mind-bogglingly stupid, I said her decision to trust a Tevinter magister of questionable background and motive, who is a transparently evil manipulator, was so, and that is undoubtedly true. Did she never see the mages she sent him, how they were entirely under his command? Did she never think, being a Circle enchanter prior to being a Warden, that he could have ulterior motives for summoning a demon army? She falls for Erimond's manipulation hook, line, and sinker when it's eminently plain he's up to no good. Being willing to do anything doesn't excuse someone from willfully keeping their eyes shut.

Right, I replayed the whole mission sequence. This is the timeline. Before the Conclave, the Wardens began to hear the Calling all at once. An order was issued for them to withdraw, wherever they happened to be. They began searching desperately for help but there was too much chaos and no Blight to induce people to take any interest. Erimond turned up (his words are that he went to them, "full of sympathy") and convinced Clarel and apparently most of the other Wardens that his ritual would allow them to end the Blights.

At some point, a small group of Wardens attended the Conclave to aid Corypheus, completely under his control, without anyone's knowledge except his. They died in the opening of the Breach. The Inquisition forms. The Wardens, by that point, are already long disappeared and nobody's noticed. Some went to perform the ritual as a test, and they returned with the demons under their control, but quiet and distant. Considering they've had to massacre their own, it is logical. Clarel can't find solid reason or evidence that Erimond is screwing them. He couldn't control a demon army anyway, and there's surely nobody controlling the Wardens. Who could? Clarel had no idea Corypheus wasn't dead until the Inquisitor said his name. (Same with Hawke and Varric, by the way, so it's "blindness" shared by all.)

Weisshaupt is way the hell off in the Anderfels, north-west of the Tevinter Imperium - getting there with a message would mean crossing two mountain ranges and two contested borders and a massive swamp along with loads and loads and loads of distance, more than the whole of Orlais. Twice, including the return message. Add to all this that Clarel was the Warden Cailan contacted to bring her people to Ostagar, but was barred from the country by Loghain and couldn't take part in defeating the Fifth Blight. Alistair's an ex-Templar (and not an true heir, plus as a Warden his old blood ties are worthless, plus he would have been made to renounce the throne by Anora). Loghain's a pariah even among the Wardens. Stroud, while an excellent warrior, isn't of rank; he hears the Calling and says it's very heavy in his thoughts. And blood magic is not a problem to the Wardens. Dangerous mind-altering blood magic with horrible drawbacks is basically the whole damn Joining, which regularly kills recruits. They do not value their lives the way Fiona values those of her mages.

Erimond was making an insulting quip, not a freaking literal statement of fact. He's also only transparently evil when he's talking to the Inquisitor; speaking to Clarel, he's much more respectful up until he decides his plan won't work. While Erimond makes that goofy "hands up, hands down" display for your benefit, remember he's not the one actually controlling them - that's the Nightmare. You then kill the Wardens, and he can run off back to Adamant and claim he was attacked by Chantry forces who saw blood magic. Which is not untrue. Especially since you then lay siege to Adamant, and Clarel has zero reason to trust the Inquisitor.

I found no sign at all of rebelling Wardens being executed by Clarel. She wanted to have the Dissenter, whoever he is, imprisoned or killed because he's running around telling people "the Wardens are using blood magic!" The ones you encounter and read notes from (Storm Coast, Crestwood) are totally reasonable, by all appearances unhappy to be chasing one of their own but doing their duty regardless.

It is plain to us, because we are the audience. The original example is a whole freaking paragraph of nitpicking and reaching where I thought "clear, concise, witty" was the standard. And I think some vaguery is necessary considering the different ways the quest line might play out.

First of all, seriously calm the hell down. At this point, the passionate way you're responding to this indicates, to me, that you have way too much emotion invested in this conversation. I have no idea why this is eliciting such a passionate reply from you, but seriously, no need for it.

Second, let's add a few notes to your history.

1. Clarel's note states that the mages she spoke to are answering "by rote". In other words, with a Creepy Monotone. The entire definition of a "by rote" response is that it sounds canned and lifeless. This, combined with the fact that SEVERAL other Wardens complained that they were now cold and distant is a red flag. Clarel herself demands to know from Erimond if there are other consequences to the binding that he has not shared with her. So, from all this, we KNOW that she knew something was POSSIBLY wrong with their minds and/or behavior, and that it was odd even for people who'd just killed their comrades.
2. The Warden Ally states that the moment he brought up Corypheus, the mages (you know, the ones who we already suspect has something wrong with him) called him a traitor and became aggressive. That's yet another red flag.
3. The Warden Ally mentioned that he suspected Corypheus had an ability to resurrect himself just like a Darkspawn can. It was specifically the suggestion of this that caused the mages (who, yet again, were behaving strangely) to turn against him. Clarel decided to not even investigate this and simply called for the dissenting Warden's arrest. Let me repeat that: "the Wardens are using blood magic" was NOT the reason the Warden Ally had to go on the run; "maybe we should see if Corypheus, the thing that can control our minds, doesn't have the ability to resurrect himself like an Archdemon" was what made the Warden Ally go on the run.
4. Erimond is a Tevinter blood mage and blood magic has the ability to control minds. Combine this with the fact that the Warden Ally mentioned investigating Corypheus to Clarel (and, as stated above, was immediately betrayed by the mages who'd already undergone the binding) and you have two plausible reasons for the aforementioned strange behavior that Clarel was willfully ignorant about. Blood magic and an ancient magister that can control Warden minds? For a woman who is desperate about not serving "the Blight", Clarel never thought it was relevant to look into this.
5. When the Inquisitor flat out comes in an tells her, "He was totally right! Corypheus is controlling your guys!" it takes Erimond one line to convince her to continue to BIND HERSELF to the Nightmare Demon. Again, we're talking about someone who, after all of the red flags above, is now agreeing to place herself under the exact same conditions. Even after you appeal to her sympathy for the Wardens (either by saying how totes awesome the Wardens are, or how you spared most of them), she still doesn't believe you. She only NOW decides to investigate.

Now let me address other points you've made:

1. It doesn't matter how far the Anderfels are. Clarel's entire justification is "if all the Wardens die, no one can stop the next Blight". Thus, you'd think she'd—Oh I dunno, confirm that all Wardens (not just the ones in Ferelden or Orlais) are hearing the Calling. You can't believe that your actions are justified on the grounds that ALL WARDENS are going to die without confirming that it's ALL WARDENS.

And finally, on your last note: perhaps you are unaware of the fact that the literal definition of Genre Blindness, as denoted on the page description is a character which has "none of the typical reactions a typical audience member would have in the same situation. Worse, they are unable to learn from any experiences related to their genre".

What part of this doesn't fit Clarel? You just said: we, the audience, can see SEVERAL red flags in her plan. The Warden Ally can see red flags in her plan. She herself saw red flags in her plan. But, it's only because of you that, at the very last second, she does not submit to the same fate as the rest of the mages. Also, "clear concise witty" is a hard rule for trope definitions, and a guideline for the site as a whole. I think, based on several edits made as of late, that you might be being a bit too literal and inflexible about it. Just my opinion, though.

I just do not see what the conflict here is.

She has the reaction a person would have if they were convinced they were going to die very soon, leaving the world to be consumed by an unstoppable army. Since all the Wardens she knows are hearing the Calling, and it would take a lot of time to confirm all Wardens everywhere had the same problem, she made the assumption that she had to act now. No, they're not rational decisions. But since when has fear and limited time to make decisions ever bred a rational reaction? She even has an emotional justification beyond just fear - Stroud says that she regretted not being able to help during the Fifth Blight and was very angry about Ostagar. Being a powerful mage also made her a little arrogant - she says that it's a problem only magic can solve.

These red flags all stem from a single event that Clarel did not personally witness. It's not like she could have investigated it properly after the Ally immediately fled, either - he fled for a good reason, but she could not know that. When I say "the Wardens are using blood magic!", I did not mean the Dissenter was actually saying that, but that it was what they believed he could say, and thus bring the Templars and the Chantry to stick their noses in and embroil them in a political conflict while time ran out. Apologies. I should have phrased that differently.

Clarel says, "But he's dead!" Erimond says "They would say anything!" But she doesn't continue to do the ritual, she continues to hesitate. Before that point, she's been clinging to "I'm a Warden and I'm a mage, only we know the sacrifices we must make, only I can carry this decision," but you knock a hole in her certainty and Erimond concedes his loss right there and decides dragon falls, everyone dies.

By rote and Creepy Monotone are not synonymous. You keep distorting what's in the game to bolster your argument. That, and the idea that someone could turn to dubious help and mistake ruthlessness for bravery being a error someone only makes in genre fiction is contributing to my annoyance. It's really not that simple. Reading the trope page, I'm just not seeing how those examples and this one are comparable. I was and am trying for a compromise, but you say no, it's impossible to justify by any logic except genre logic, there is no mitigating factor, Clarel's just never read any fantasy stories.

I...genuinely have no idea what you mean?

"They're not rational decisions." Then what is the disagreement?!

Whether her decisions are what "normal" people would do in her situation is speculation at best and an unanswerable question at worst. There are tons of examples of Genre Blindness that can be twisted to suggest that any person could or would do the same thing in their situation. That isn't the point. The point is that we, the audience, can see several, if not dozens of reasons why her reactions were extremely questionable, and thus demonstrates that she is acting blindly in relation to the story she inhabits. Seriously, you are still looking to in-universe reasoning to dismiss this discussion, and that is a dead end. You can't criticize the logic of a story with the logic of the story.

And yes, each of these red flags are things Clarel either saw or heard about from her fellow Wardens. She says that every mage that spoke to her did so by rote. The Ally says that he brought up the idea of Corypheus being able to resurrect himself to her and the affected mages turned aggressive toward him. She was there when the Inquisitor came and confirmed that Corypheus is behind it. Even if she thought the Inquisitor was lied to by the Ally, the only thing that changes her mind is demonstrating that you have sympathy for the Wardens. Not more evidence or proof.

"By rote" and Creepy Monotone ARE the same thing. "Rote" means "mechanical and lifeless". The other Wardens referred to the Mages as "cold". That is a Creepy Monotone, since it is specifically mechanical behavior that is unsettling to others.

Also, I don't know what examples you're looking at, but everything I've presented here is pretty much a solid case for Genre Blindness by itself. You, yourself, have said "she doesn't act like we would as the audience", which is the definition of the trope. You said "I concede she may have been Genre Blind, but not stupid" when stupidity was never something I said. (The other guy did, but don't lump in my statement with his.) Now you're accusing me of "twisting" the events of the game. You've already said, multiple times, that she is Genre Blind, once by stating the trope outright and again by saying she fits the definition. And now, yet again, you said "they aren't rational decisions". Then once again: WHAT IS THE ARGUMENT? Every dumb teen group in a Slasher Film that says "Let's Split Up, Gang!" are probably too scared to act rationally, too, but that has nothing to do with Genre Blindness, nor whether or not they'd watched or read these stories before.

I rejected your compromise from earlier because it wasn't a "compromise". If you're still looking for one, then let's do that instead of going in circles over the semantics and trying to justify story logic with story logic.

Erimond "gets tired of her hem-hawing". No, he makes a smug quip and drops a dragon on you when he realises he's lost the verbal duel.

Clarel had anyone who argued executed personally. No, she had one rebel pursued to be imprisoned, or killed. And the entry has "infinitely more reasonable" used to describe that character whoever he happens to be, as though anybody should automatically trust him when he might be Loghain.

She knew there was something wrong with her mages but did nothing about it. No, she was suspicious there might be, and went to the one source of information she had, but was presumably pressured into abandoning it or did not have time.

"By rote" means "memorised through repetition, with no understanding". It can be mechanical or off-putting, but it can also be bored, dry or dull. Creepy Monotone is very specific. Since we never actually hear it, we don't know that it can be described that way.

My argument is that it doesn't have much to do with genre, and more to do with the way she is characterised - as a desperate person. Yes, some of it can be called genre-blind, like putting that much trust in Erimond, but to say it's all just genre trappings is to strip the character of humanity and remove the story's punch, make it less applicable and effective. To boil "desperation and fear that justifies atrocity" down that far? Annoying. A pet-peeve, I suppose. We, as an audience, cannot know how we would react in that situation, because we already know far more than she ever did.

I suggested that compromise because the quest line can take on a different tone to different players, and depending on the characters present and what the player character does. There are a lot of variables, too many to describe in full in a trope example. I thought it would be best to have the one very questionable decision she will always have made spotlighted to keep the word-count down, because I know I'm unusually wordy. (Also, some unnamed contributors - not you - do seem to have it out for her, specifically, writing very...vehement entries.) You have not offered an alternative except leaving it as it was. Do you want to give me one?

Again, Erimone DOES get tired of her hem-hawing. His exact words are, "Perhaps I should bring in a more reliable ally. He was specifically done with putting up with Clarel.

Clarel suspected her mages were not acting correctly, with multiple people stating problems that she tossed aside with a reason that was a guess at best. Also, read the trope page for Creepy Monotone. It is specifically defined as a character's behavior beck in dull and mechanical with ''mind control' stated as a possible cause.

I never wrote "infinitely more reasonable" in the entry. And the identity of the Ally is irrelevant when only ONE may possibly be Loghain, and and that's a Ad Hominem anyway.

Your pet peeves should not have anything to do with how you edit a wiki. You are making up personal objections now that has nothing to do with the trope. How does Genre Blindness "strip a character if humanity" any more than Fantastic Racism or Stock Character or Knight Templar? It's a trope. Tropes Are Not Bad, remember?

It doesn't matter how we audience members would imagine ourselves in the story. None of us would plan to split up when getting chased by a killer, either, but how many of us actually have been in that situation? Should we not allow people to use that trope unless they take the poor characters' feelings into consideration? What?!? And now you accuse me of having it "out for her" when I specifically deleted a trope that called her stupid right before adding the one in question? What?!???

And all of a sudden this is about word count?! The entry isn't even all that long and the entire thing is made up of accurate examples of her genre blindness. Again, your "compromise" doesn't make any sense because I see no reason the post above does not work.

Does this discussion really warrant these elongated walls of text? I don't think so and it makes it hard to follow.

Septimus, I'll attempt to give a simple explanation of the plot in question and its relevance to Genre Blindness.

A character named Clarel is the leader of one chapter of the Grey Wardens, an order that are the only people that can kill an Archdemon, or else The Horde will consume the whole world. The Grey Wardens have a shortened lifespan, which they know is ending when they hear something called The Calling in their heads. Before the start of the game, every Warden in the country that Clarel oversees has started to hear the Calling. (Later on, we learn that Wardens in other countries are actually just fine, meaning that Clarel and her Wardens' fear was never in danger of happening anyway.)

Clarel asks for help from various sources and the person that responds is a Blood Mage from a country known to use Blood Magic for Mind Manipulation named Erimond. His proposed solution, naturally, involves blood magic. She agrees and several mages do it. Clarel notes that after doing so, the mages are answer "by rote" and that several of their colleagues have noted that they are now cold and distant. (Or, as I summed it up, Creepy Monotone.) She warns Erimond that he better not be lying to her.

One Warden is against this plan from the start and suggests that they research a being called Corypheus that could influence Warden minds and might be behind the Calling. Corypheus died in the previous game, but it was possible he could have resurrected himself (which is exactly what happened). The moment the Warden points this out, the mages who had performed the ritual turn aggressive and call him a traitor, and Clarel calls for his arrest or execution. He flees and seeks help from his friend Hawke and the protagonist.

After the three heroes confirm that Corypheus is behind everything, they arrive Just in Time before Clarel is about to perform the ritual herself. They tell her that Corypheus is involved, but the blood mage convinces her to do it anyway. At the last second, though, the protagonist will do something (depending on choices) to convince her to delay and she finally decides that it's time to investigate. But at this point, the Wardens have already irreparably damaged their reputation and the heroes have to face their mistake (leading to the death of one of the three heroes mentioned before).

I, and Crimson Zephyr call this a clear case of Genre Blindness due to the sheer number of ways Clarel's reactions are willfully ignorant. Nano Moose does not.

One of the heroes personally killed Corypheus. There was a body. He transferred his soul to another body at the very last second. The heroes definitely did not see this, but the player could.

The Wardens are an organisation with a history of desperate measures and secretive practices. It's in their oath that they win at any cost, including - especially - their own deaths. Many of their rituals are very dubious, dangerous and kept secret, even from others of the Order. They're widely scattered and the game takes place a very long way from their headquarters. Clarel did not send for confirmation of the Calling.

None of the heroes know any of this is happening until the last minute, only that the Wardens have gone. The Calling had been going on for months and months, long before the game's primary conflict starts, and only the Wardens knew, and only Erimond offered them aid. When the heroes turn up, Clarel sees them co-operating with the fleeing Warden and assumes they may attempt to stop her, an impression not aided when they lay siege to the fortress Clarel is using.

The player character tells her Corypheus is involved, she stops, because she believed he was dead. Erimond says they would say anything. The player might or might not convince the other Wardens not to attack. Either way, Clarel says they need to put the ritual on hold to investigate, and Erimond summons a dragon to kill the heroes and Clarel. Clarel dies defending the heroes from the dragon. That takes place over a single cutscene. The rest must be pieced together from multiple cutscenes, ingame lore and supposition.

I did not say that you had it out for her, Zeal. I said other seem to, not you. I say that it's not just a stupid decision in context, one that no one would ever make. Splitting up in a haunted house is a stupid decision in context that a person would not make. I say simply that it is not as simple as being genre-blind.

Genre Blindness has nothing to do with "simplicity". That's where I think you're making a mistake.

I don't see how that reply offers anything more to the discussion except irrelevant context.

I'm confused why we should assume the Wardens know everything the audience knows. But mod says, I'll fold. End of argument. Again, I concede that it fits, but the original example still needs to change. That I do not concede. It's too detailed, too emotional, too long, too emphasised, too ranty. I tried to write a replacement using a less specific and more neutral tone. What specifically about my version is wrong? What would you add or remove?

Or to put it another way: what about the original example needs to be preserved?

Here is what I would change it to, then. And ironically, if anything, playing through it multiple times for this debate has given me even MORE evidence for the trope.

• Genre Blindness: Notes found at Adamant Fortress suggests that she noticed something was very wrong about the mages who'd participated in Erimond's ritual, such as the fact that every single one now spoke in a Creepy Monotone, the fact that those same mages immediately became hostile when the Warden Ally mentioned the name of the Elder One, and the fact that those same mages also turned hostile to any other Wardens who questioned the ritual at Adamant, killing their own former comrades. To make matters worse, Clarel herself was about to perform the same ritual at Adamant, despite her suspicions and the behavior mentioned above and even with the Inquisitor interrupting the final ritual to tell her that the mages have been enslaved by The Elder One. She at first still took Erimond's word (when it was made clear before that she was already wary of him) over the Inquisitor and the Warden Ally. She's still only beginning to question this when Erimond flat out betrays her because she became unreliable.

Too much detail. We're trying to explain why the example fits, not summarise the game for newbies. Keep the two things that won't change no matter how you characterise anybody.

Clarel maintains her trust in a Tevinter blood mage, despite the increasingly suspicious/violent behaviour of both him and the Wardens he'd been "helping", until he summons a dragon to kill her.

It's worth noting that Genre Blindness is not a trope about "stupid", it's about things that someone familiar with the genre would never do if in a story set in such a genre.

Running towards a shadowy slumbering figure in a horror film may not be stupid depending upon context, but it would probably qualify as Genre Blindness.

Okay, I'll give that the suggestion is concise. But, it gets many details wrong.

• Genre Blindness: Clarel continues in her plan to bind herself to a demon via blood magic, despite the increasingly suspicious behavior of her Tevinter blood mage benefactor, the violent behavior of the Wardens who'd done so, the suggestion that their own minds were being influenced, and confirmation from the Inquisitor him/herself... until he summons an Archdemon.

I don't really get how that's Genre Blindness, though. It'd be What An Idiot or Idiot Ball, maybe, but I'm not sure what the "genre" here is.

Kinda the problem I see with people putting Genre Savvy for every character that's just, well, savvy.

Thus why I tried to explain more detail, such as the fact that Erimond is a Tevinter Blood Mage, that the mages spoke in a Creepy Monotone, that the mages went ballistic when it was even suggested that the main villain was involved, etc., etc.

These are all tropes that any person who was aware of what kind of setting Dragon Age is would consider red flags for Clarel's plan. The main reason I don't consider it an Idiot Ball or What An Idiot is because she had suspicions and she did do the right thing in the end, even if it came hella late.

"...Their suggestions that their own minds..." remove "own", it's superfluous, and switch "confirmation" for "intervention". Other than that, it still seems too detailed to me, but I guess it's hard to boil down further.

In the context of that sentence, "own" is a necessary article to distinguish the mages who are being out right Mind Controlled from the non-mage Wardens who are under suggestion but still making their own decisions.

"Confirmation" is necessary to state that the original points that were brought up were given further corroboration by the Inquisitor. Otherwise, there's no point in mentioning the Inquisitor at all.

I think the distinction is perfectly understandable without it.

My thought process on the latter part is starting to confuse even me, so I'll decline to comment.

It's not Genre Blindness. Yes, there's clear sings of blood magic for someone in the Dragon Age universe, but Genre Blindless requires more medium awareness (or the lack of there of). And "Setting with Blood Magic" isn't a genre. It'd definitely say it is more Idiot Ball.

Right. It's less that she should know better from having read a fantasy novel or two, and more because she should know better because she should have been better aware of within her own universe.

And most of the concerns in the original writeup are less with her "blindness" and more with the actions she took because of the "blindness," so Idiot Ball seems a much better fit.

So, it's been a full week, so I assume we've all had time to stew on this. We seem to be near a consensus, but just need a final agreement before any changes are made/added.

Here is the final writeup I proposed above:

• _________: Clarel continues in her plan to bind herself to a demon via blood magic, despite the increasingly suspicious behavior of her Tevinter blood mage benefactor, the violent behavior of the Wardens who'd done so, the suggestion that their own minds were being influenced, and confirmation from the Inquisitor him/herself... until he summons an Archdemon.

Since many people have said that Clarel's actions qualify for Idiot Ball, we need to decide whether or not to use that trope above Genre Blindness.

Clarel is certainly not an ally. Even if she did think she had good reason, she was opposing the Inquisition until moments before her death. She's just barely sympathetic enough to make it out of antagonist territory.