Should Kaname also be a Dragon with an Agenda? I’ll put it down just in case.
Edited by Duncril01 Hide / Show Replies
Tousen felt he was able to achieve thay by helping Aizen achieve Aizen's goals. That's the Agenda trope; The Agenda trope means the Dragon isn't trying to accomplish the Big Bad's goals, they're trying to accomplish their own goals, which don't lie in the same direction as the Big Bad's. That's why Gin is the Agenda trope, but Tousen isn't.
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Not if the story doesn't write him that way. A hero's primary villain opponent isn't automatically the Arch-Enemy trope. The Arch-Enemy trope requires an It's Personal element for the trope to be in effect, which is why the Big Bad of a story isn't always the hero's Arch-Enemy.
Aizen makes a point of discussing the fact that he isn't Ichigo's Arch-Enemy. He tries to use that fact to break Ichigo's resolve so Komamura points out that Ichigo's not the kind of guy who needs an Arch-Enemy to win in order to support Ichigo's resolve.
The first time Ichigo ever gets an It's Personal element to the foes he's fighting is during the Lost Shinigami Agent Arc. That villain is the first time Ichigo comes close to the Arch-Enemy trope. Aizen was many things to Ichigo, but the Arch-Enemy trope was never one of them.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Strictly speaking, that's not true, Wyldchyld.
Arch-Enemy states in its description that it doesn't require both people in the conflict to feel It's Personal between each other. One can certainly take it more personally than the other.
It can be argued that Grand Fisher was Ichigo's first Arch-Enemy. It was personal for both of them—Grand Fisher killed Ichigo's mother, and Grand Fisher also had a grudge against the Kurosakis. Renji, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra were Ichigo's his next arch-enemies. Renji despised Ichigo for being the cause of Rukia losing her powers and being sentenced to death. Grimmjow despised Ichigo for daring to stand up against him despite being his prey. There was even a scene where Ichigo attempts to defy that It's Personal between himself an Ulquiorra by claiming Ulquiorra did nothing to hurt his friends, only for Ulquiorra to reveal that he was the one who kidnapped Orihime and framed her, and Ichigo immediately decided to fight Ulquiorra then and there. Later, we have Ginjo (which you've mentioned), and Yuwach, who is revealed to have killed Ichigo's mother indirectly.
However, the description makes it unclear whether or not a character is allowed to have more than one Arch-Enemy, but the examples (especially in Comic Books, where the heroes have entire Rogues Galleries) indicate that this need not be the case.
Edited by NubianSatyress
That may be so, but during the climax of the first half of bleach Aizen was getting pissed off because he getting his ass beat by dangai ichigo and he feels that he shouldn’t be second best, that is clearly arch enemy status. Rewatch the fight if you don’t believe me.
Edited by Duncril01
^ That's This Cannot Be! and Villainous Breakdown. Not an Arch-Enemy status.
^ Seconded.
Overall, Aizen was more a goal than an Arch-Enemy. He didn't need to beat Aizen, he needed to stop Aizen's plot.
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Okay but I wish they could have been arch enemies like Jotaro vs Dio or Luffy vs Blackbeard for example.
... what, exactly, do you want from us? It's fine you wish they could have been arch enemies, but they weren't. How are we supposed to respond to that?
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I forgot about the Grand Fisher. I'd agree he was an Arch-Enemy for Ichigo. However, as Larkman says, Aizen was more of a 'goal' for Ichigo and Ichigo was more of an 'experimental tool' for Aizen (one Aizen, in the tradition of all villains, ended up underestimating).
I think the closest thing Aizen had to an Arch-Enemy was probably Urahara — although I wouldn't rush to apply the trope to them.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
* AxCrazy: [[MaskOfSanity He's very good at hiding it, though.]] The '''only''' living being in the series to ever surpass him in this regard is [[BiggerBad Yhwach.]] was deleted for being a Zero Context Example.
Would * AxCrazy: Aizen is a ruthless and megalomaniacal sociopath who delights in manipulating and emotionally torturing others, and seeks to overthrow the Soul King and take his place -- which would destabilize if not destroy reality. [[MaskOfSanity He's very good at hiding it, though.]] The '''only''' living being in the series to ever surpass him in this regard is [[BiggerBad Yhwach.]] work?
Edited by Arawn999 Hide / Show Replies
Aizen isn't an example of the Ax-Crazy trope at all. He's The Sociopath, a Soft-Spoken Sadist and a Mad Scientist — all of which are already on his page.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I have too wonder why The Sociopath has been removed from Aizen's list. As he's a textbook example of Sociopath. Lack of Empathy? Check. Manipulates people like chesspieces and only emitting shallow emotions? Check. Inflated ego and sense of self-worth? Double check High amount of charisma that totality fake? Triple check.
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As a note on the removal of Satanic Archetype from Aizen (and it has been removed before because Aizen doesn't fit the trope):
Hueco Mundo and its inhabitants do not equate to Hell and Soul Society does not equate to Heaven. There is also a completely separate Hell realm.
Shoe-horning any of these realms into Christian cosmology is problematic because all three realms can fit Christianity's idea of Purgatory, but none of them fit Christianity's idea of either Heaven or Hell (not even the story's 'Hell' realm). Soul Society also doesn't fit the closest thing Buddhism has to 'heaven' either because it's still part of the 'reincarnation' cycle.
Edited by 2.97.130.117 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
It doesn't matter if there is a separate Hell realm or if Soul Society is not actually Heaven; the fact that there is even a passing resemblance to them is enough. Its Satanic archetype- he isn't supposed to actually be Satan or a full stand-in, he just needs to parallel him in some way, and he does. His Hollow form especially is definitely based on Satan.
Several characters listed on that page fit the archetype less than he does. Its not about "shoe-horning" the story into a particular religious cosmology, its about his story and Satan's being even roughly similar.
With regards to the Lightning Bruiser footnote (I haven't removed the trope from the page, just commented it out for discussion; hopefully it'll only be temporary).
"Just about every other character sacrifices proficiency in something if they excel at a particular point. Yoruichi and Soifon, for example, are very quick but are not demonstrated to have strength exceeding shinigami standards. Komamura is demonstrated as a physical powerhouse, but lacks mobility. Despite Word of God stating that Aizen's "weakest" attribute is his physical strength, his overall Power Level is so high that he can overpower Komamura's bankai with one hand and move so fast that Ichigo Kurosaki (whose main benefit in bankai is his speed) thinks that he's teleporting."
Soifon has been explicitly stated to be both incredibly fast and incredibly strong. The databooks clarify that her best ability is actually her strength as opposed to her speed. On top of that, Yoruichi is both faster and stronger than her.
Komamura may have a significant difference between his strength and speed, but nowhere has he been described as slow. It's not as though he's an example of Mighty Glacier, although it's common for fans to perceive him as one due to his preferred style.
Iba also stated that the best method for reaching vice-captain rank is to be as well-rounded as possible rather than a specialist. Aizen made it clear Yamamoto's an all-rounder. The databooks also reveal that Gin, Byakuya and Hitsugaya are all-rounders.
Aizen's all-rounder status isn't weird or unusual for Bleach. It's his power scale that's the unique factor, and that's going to be a different trope.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
See the fight of Komamura vs Soifon. The fight is essentially Soifon nailing Komamura with a ton of swift, speedy attacks (with Shunko activated) while he gets in a punch or two here and there. She knocks him on his ass more than once, only for him to essentially in the fight in a draw in ONE SHOT with his shikai.
That said, though well-roundedness is common in Bleach, that really doesn't disqualify Aizen for the trope when Mighty Glaciers do exist. Ayon is another example. Byakuya at one point says that his bankai forms tend to be either all defense or all offense (which is more Stone Wall vs Glass Cannon, but I digress).
Well, the anime tends to play fast and loose with characters in the filler fights. I don't think Ayon is an example of a lightning bruiser either. His power was introduced as both speed and strength in the same opening attack.
That said, I can see that the trope is currently undergoing a repair right now. It's very possible I might end up agreeing on you, depending on what the decision turns out to be on cleaning up its description.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Actually, now I've read the trope repair discussion, I can see where you're coming from. I think you're right. Aizen's so far above the other characters in all areas that he is a Lightning Bruiser. I've put the trope back onto the character page.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Should Aizen be classified as an Ex-Big Bad since he was the main villain of the pre-timeskip half and in the post-timeskip half he’s not the main villain of that half?