Ask The Tropers

I should point out that the Spy Speak example is a ZCE.

It could use some extending. Yes, but they do give some context in it.

No, it doesn't.

• Spy Speak: Their members tend to employ this out in public.

The example simply tells us the trope is present without explaining how. What is Spy Speak in the context of Fallout 4? How is it being used? The example doesn't say anything. Therefore, it's a ZCE.

The Railroad gives callsigns to the members as well as using Roadsigns (a reference to the Thieves Guild shadow sign) to signal them.

I haven't played Fallout 4, but those edits do seem a bit biased to me. You deleted positive points about the Railroad and deleted negative points about the BOS (and Gunners) that weren't complain-y in tone, while also complaining about the Railroad with your own edits, and you shoehorned a few of those complaints into irrelevant tropes. You should let the reader decide how they should feel about their actions, not add your own judgement to it. If you think that there's a bias towards a faction on there, tone it down without demonizing them.

Also your edit to the Army of Thieves and Whores example removed all the context that made it even fit the trope. You can't assume that readers are going to know who the Raiders are.

^^ The Spy Speak example does not reference that, nor does it describe what said signs look like. I've given the entire example, copied from the page, and it doesn't tell anyone how it fits. Examples must stand on their own.

The objective parts of work articles should be based on fact, not opinion. It was Bethesda's intention to provide factions in FO4 that are not explicitly evil and not explicitly good, but to let the player choose on the basis of which ideology they identify with most. Accordingly, we should write the articles neutrally, discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the factions without telling the reader which is better or worse (nor implying the same).

• The Brotherhood believes that technology is too dangerous in the hands of the general population, that mutants and synths are intolerable, and wants to institute military control over humanity.
• The Institute believes that the Commonwealth is a write-off and wants to rebuild human society using high technology and with synths as slaves/workers/soldiers.
• The Railroad believes that synths should have the same rights as humans yet its operational structure resembles that of a terrorist organization.
• The Minutemen believe in minarchist democracy, but harbor a fair share of bigots and malcontents, and their structure is extremely weak to demagogery.

IMO the existing article leaned quite heavily on the pro-railroad, anti-brotherhood side, (Calling the Brotherhood the greatest threat to the Commonwealth's freedom, for one). Any attempt to equalize the tone of a currently biased article would lean towards being biased against the exant bias itself.

My point is, the Railroad are heavily hypocritical, care little for human life, and to the average joes, is no better than the institute. Both hide out in their underground lairs, spouting ideology and infiltrating damn near everyone, points that really aren't mentioned much in the current page, where they're made out to be these heroic rebels that they definitely aren't.

My goals, as far as those edits go, were to make it clear the the Railroad are Synth-obssesed borderline terrorists (I use the term borderline because while they engage in similar guerilla tactics and wanton disregard for human life, fear-mongering wasn't part of their goal.) As for the pro-brotherhood bit. From what I've seen on the trope page (Which I've actually read before playing the game), they're made out to be an evil empire of self-righteous fascists. Yet they really don't try to conquer anything. They're there to clean up the major threats against humanity, both locally and as a whole, not to conquer Diamond City, and yet are given epithets like "greatest threat to freedom" "A nazi by any other name" and "fascist".)

Yes. I am by no means unbiased (I <3 Paladin-esque figures. The brotherhood are clearly the paladin-esque faction.) And I accept that further changes and edits after my own will be required for a truly neutral point of view. But ham-fisted and over-eager reverts won't change anything.

Walrus, you're being part of the problem. If you can't be objective, don't "de-bias" the page; instead, leave the editing to others.

In case anyone is interested in knowing, Darth Walrus is still making pro-BOS edits on the Characters.Fallout 4 Factions page.

In this case, it's not really that big of a deal. He said that the Brotherhood of Steel made the East Coast stable "without making the locals' lives a living hell". Thing is, though, there's no way we can know that because we've never seen the East Coast after Maxson took over as leader. However, talking to several faithful BOS members, who believe in Maxson's leadership of the organization, the BOS has returned to the pre-Lyons (the previous leader) sentiment of placing control of technology over the safety or freedoms of the populace. In previous games, the BOS didn't give two hoots about the well-being of other people so long as it didn't involve powerful technology or threaten the BOS itself.

Long story short, we have NO way to confirm that the Brotherhood of this game isn't making life hell on the East Coast.

Another question:

The Swordsman edited the page again, changing two things:

• He states that the BOS cannot be "self-centered" as they send patrols to protect Commonwealth citizens.
  • This statement ignores the fact that this ONLY applies to humans. They hunt down and kill mutants and Synths, regardless of whether or not they're hostile.
• He says that the BOS plan on leaving the Commonwealth after establishing order.
  • We only have the BOS's word that's the case. And even if they did, nothing stops them from returning for any reason they choose.

Said mention of the Brotherhood as compared to Caesar's Legion existed prior to me editting. I was simply reverting collateral damage you inflicted on the page in your wave of reverts. (You removed everything after the word "Under", leaving an incomplete description. I just fixed it). Beyond cleanup and a little snark, I've maintained a hands off policy, as Fighteer requested.

From what we've seen, you're not better than I am on the bias. I'd be happy to work with you on an actually neutral page, but barring that, the Swordsman seems like a reliable third POV. We should move actual discussion over lore details to the relevant discussion page, for posterity's sake if nothing else.

That wasn't "collateral damage". I edited those parts on purpose.

I'd prefer to have someone else tell me whether or not my edits seem biased. I've done my best to explain my edits within the context of the game's stories, and I don't really trust your position at this point.

Darth Walrus, Nubian Satyress, please stop arguing. Neither of you are making making any points.

I'll stop, but I don't understand what you mean by "making any points".

Basically, neither of you have accomplished anything other than making yourselves look petty.

Then I apologize, though I don't have any idea what I did wrong or could do better.

Nubian, if you edited those parts on purpose, how come you only removed a portion, and left it in an incomplete state for over a day? It really does give the impression that in your haste to delete a comparison between the Brotherhood and the Railroad, you axed part of another entry.

Here's a "Quote" of the edit, if you will. The bolded parts were the ones removed.

• To Caesar's Legion. Much like how the Legion emulates Rome (or at least cherry-picks what suits them), the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel is evoking feudal/medieval imagery, albeit infused with technology and memories of its US military origins. But whereas the Legion's ultimately unstable and desperate to firmly establish its "New Rome" in New Vegas, the Brotherhood under Elder Maxson have already managed to pull it off in the Capital Wasteland without making life hell for the locals.
• To the Railroad. The Railroad are single-mindedly obsessed with Synth Freedom, even at the cost of countless human lives while the Brotherhood sees it as their duty to safeguard humanity as a whole from threats such as the Synths.

Your accusations a few posts before that, implied that I added the entirety of this comparison, when it was infact, added by someone else over a year ago.

PS. I know this kind of giant post is a bit of an over-reaction, but I don't like getting accused of something I didn't do.

Stop bickering, you two. Otherwise both of you will receive a break.