Needs Cleaning Up: Humans Are Bastards

first, we should follow the Crowner. Once that is done, I'm fine with continuing discussion about the trope itself.

Look, "the Trope Decayed definition", in its most general form, is just any bad thing one evil human character or group of evil human characters does to others in a work that an individual editor wants to argue is evidence for saying that all people/humanity are evil. That in it of itself isn't even a trope; it's a YMMV viewer reaction (not to mention a flimsy, if not illogical, conclusion to reach on these grounds). If we want a trope, it should focus on an objective In-Universe occurrence, which the leading option, frankly, doesn't actually suggest.

And why should we follow the crowner if we're only going to continue a discussion on modifying it further? Why can't we just do that here and now, instead of trying to fix the same thing twice?

edited 6th Jan '12 2:54:22 PM by SeanMurrayI

The Crowner says to move all examples that the trope was supposed to be 4 into a new trope. It will be easier to fix this trope if we have a clean slate to work with.

This is a bit late, maybe, but the definition of Humans Are Bastards that is in the new sandbox, that "all humans are inherently evil" is a common theme and a valid trope. It would probably benefit from a more descriptive name. Like All Humans Are Born Evil or something like that, like All Humans Have A Sinful Nature. "Some humans do bad things" or "some humans can be evil" which Humans Are Bastards has decayed into isn't really a trope at all, that I can tell.

IS this concluded?

Unfortunately, no. We're on the horns of a dilemma with this thing. There's too much resistance to the idea of the misuse of this trope being a trope at all (and are encouraging ignoring the results of the crowner). Yet leaving it alone is perpetuating massive misuse of the trope. And we can't cut it because of inbounds.

So what's left?

We need to settle on a name for the correct use of Humans Are Bastards (humans are bastards compared to other sapient species), and populate the sandbox page of Humans Are Bastards with examples of settings under the trope decayed definition.

And while this is going to sound rude, we need to stop arguing with Sean Murray I who has made his position very clear but has been outvoted by the crowner.

I think we need to YKTTW the trope the crowner is suggesting the split upon, so that it can take the correct uses of Humans Are Bastards, chop 'em off Humans Are Bastards, and then close this thread.

Opinions?

Right now this thread should have an alt titles Crowner for "the hat for humans is bastardry". It should also link to the ykttw thread.

The crowner isn't God, and all I'm saying is that much of the current misuse for this page has seen editors just bemoaning and elaborating on the horrible actions of lone individuals who just so happen to be human, which doesn't even qualify as an objective work occurrence or trope.

Splitting off the misuse as its own separate thing means taking this garbage with it, despite this stuff being (at best) a flawed, subjective opinion of individual editors looking to describe the terrible actions of one fictional character as defining all people—such cases typically end or begin with "this proves the trope to be generally true" or an equally arguable thesis—or (at worst) a showcase of individual characters performing any number of morally terrible actions wherein the only common characteristic is that all these characters are human, or just Evil Characters Who Are Also Human.

As I've been saying, if anything deserves a split or special attention in its own right, it's the "gray area" I defined in the OP, wherein the Humans Are Bastards opinion is not being defined by a non-human species but by a human who, on his own, has observed an amoral attitude as commonplace in human society. It's more objective, it can be referenced directly from a work, and does not rely on the argument of an individual editor to justify itself.

edited 24th Feb '12 7:31:54 AM by SeanMurrayI

Send the new trope to be made to YKTTW and do an alt-titles crowner here for the old Humans Are Bastards? That sounds good.

I can't remember what all names were proposed for the alt-titles so I just threw in Terrans Are Bastards and Humans Are the Real Monsters. Please feel free to add more! Here's a crowner.

Sean, I don't mean to be a jerk to you, I just feel that on this particular topic, we've been stymied for way too long and people get the sense no forward progress is possible. Most people are, I think, sick to death of this debate that has lagged for years. We have a clear crowner winner and I don't see why we shouldn't go ahead with that course of action, fixing Humans Are Bastards and making the new trope. If it becomes a problem, it becomes a problem. At least it will be a new thread and not this old lumbering behemoth.

edited 24th Feb '12 7:55:02 AM by Tyoria

As am I, but reading this...

...I have to ask, "Why bother to even go forth with something that has significant potential to be a problem if we can just work to avoid having the problem in the first place?"

These tropes are intended to be directly related to philosophical arguments (within works) that observe amoral motivations driving human nature. And that appears to be lost on nearly everyone else pushing for the misuse to be its own trope. The real misuse either ignores the philosophy behind the concept and just describes evil or selfish acts performed by individual characters who just happen to be human (which is, very much, insignificant for a trope) or is an opinion of an editor about real humans being bastards, based on events that transpire in a work (which is subjective opinion and YMMV, at best, or argumentative Natter, at worst). Make a trope around this, and we have something that ignores the basic premise this was supposed to be founded on and makes the entire matter either meaningless or a forum for subjective opinions of individual editors.

At least, don't let what is already a problem with Humans Are Bastards wicks be present on a new page; this is just common sense, really. Can someone expand or elaborate on this "people are bastards" definition that has been proposed so that it doesn't include the editor opinions and the trivial "human character does something evil" nonsense that contributes nothing? I've shared my own solutions with how to avoid this, but if you guys are just going to reject it, how do you propose we avoid giving the unwanted misuse a place in the new article?

edited 24th Feb '12 9:20:42 AM by SeanMurrayI

Hooked the crowner as requested, but, Sean's question seems to me a valid one, and I very much hope it won't go unanswered.

"Humans are the bastard species" - what Humans Are Bastards was conceived as — is recognized by everyone as a real trope that is constantly misused. We haven't been moving forward on fixing the issue everyone agrees needs fixing because we've been caught in this boondoggle about whether or not the misuse constitutes a trope of its own.

We have a definition up on the sandbox page for the definition most of the misuse seems to point to and most people here seem to think it's supportable as a trope. If I thought it wasn't a real trope and would only gather misuse, I wouldn't suggest it. If it turns out to be an idea done in error, I am prepared to accept that. But at least we will be doing it on its own terms as a trope and not forever connected to "humans are the bastard species" which is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT concept that only gets confused with the other because nothing in the name suggests there are other sapient species in play BESIDES humans.

I don't think that will happen. I just think, worst case scenario, we will have at least fixed the trope EVERYONE agrees is valid.

edited 24th Feb '12 12:20:49 PM by Tyoria

By the way: to help combat Trope Decay, I put up a YKTTW that should help cover a lot of the entries that get slotted into Humans Are Bastards: "People Are The Real Enemy." It covers situations where other humans are your worst enemy (usually during situations like Zombie Apocalypse).

That sounds like a useful distinction.

So...what do we do with (some of) the other Humans Are tropes that are probably misused in the same way as Humans Are Bastards was?

Good idea.

edited 7th Mar '12 12:25:38 PM by Ekuran

Check some for misuse, and if there is some, make a thread for each when an opening comes up.

5x I'm pretty happy with that sandbox description, actually.

All the "Trope Decay" is because of the title. The description is generally fine but the title is WRONG. This is a trope about Aliens/Animals/Automations/Algae/ect being morally superior to humans. Humans don't have to be bastards, they have to be worse, or at least declared worse by someone else.

This is not a trope about Misanthropy, That's Misanthrope Supreme or Hates Everyone Equally. The solution, is therefore to change the name to something so obvious no one will get it wrong. My Species Is Better Than Humanity, Humans Are More Barbaric Than Us, Aliens Think Humans Are Bastards, maybe just merge it and Aliens Are Bastards into Social Posturing or something but the name has to be insultingly obvious.

edited 7th Mar '12 5:02:54 PM by Cider

Actually, "Humans Are The Real Monsters" in the crowner ought to be changed to "YOU Humans Are The Real Monsters." That would clear it up significantly as a comparison by a non-human. Maybe even the original title, "YOU Humans Are Bastards" would be clearer that way

Humans Are The Real Monsters would lead to the same thing that's happening right now, I think. The idea of them being compared to another species should be emphasized in the title.

That's what "the real monsters" does. It states that there are monsters around, but humans are the "real" ones.

That makes it look like dialog, when this is a plot trope.

edited 7th Mar '12 9:12:52 PM by DragonQuestZ

Yeah, but I'm not sure if people would get it. It sounds like humans are being compared to violent, destructive animals. Who, unlike humans are not evil due to sheer animal stupidity. Humans, though, are malevolent and intelligent.

If I understand the trope right, humans must be compared to another intelligent species.

Edit: For example, a bear kills someone's kid. This is due to animal instinct, and not animal wickedness. Humans, though, keep farm animals locked in pathetically small cages, kill for fun, torture, ect.

Even if we have a trope for that already (not sure if we do), that title might be confusing.

edited 7th Mar '12 9:25:09 PM by SilentColossus