When They Cry - Higurashi and Umineko

True X) We learn to be so dubious about anything said that we end up missing perfectly plausible theories from the characters.

Huh… I hadn't measured it the first time, but the fourth game is really tough… having all the relatives see "Kinzō" and call Battler saying "these guys can use magic and stuff, don't try to think of a trick!" just before dying, is a magnificent troll move. I kind of understand why it was Beato's last game because I don't think she could have topped that. >__<

Also, Daisuke Ono should stop trying to scream. Each time he does is incredibly narmy. I know Battler screams a lot, but still… UuuuuuwooooooaaAAAAAAAAAH!!!

edited 2nd Dec '12 8:41:17 AM by Lyendith

The answer in so many cases is just so screamingly obvious (Namely, that someone is lying), but the narrative does an incredibly good job of diverting away with that possibility, especially with Battlers long lasting paradox of not wanting to believe in a witch, but not wanting to suspect his family members.

Okay, I've finished rereading all the first half of the series. Wew. There were quite a few things that I had completely missed on the first reading, which explain, if not a lot, a least a bit. Like, regarding Sakutarō Beato starts to say in red that Rosa made the plushie and that it is unique… but chokes mid-way. I had really, totally overlooked that the first time.

Now regarding the 4th game… well, there is only one way to explain it. It's probably similar to the sixth game i.e. a big prank where the "participants" weren't told that they would be killed for real at the end. "The tales woven by the golden truth" may refer to the first part. The only real problem comes with Beato's last riddle.

"Ushiromiya Battler. Right now, you are the only one alive on this island."

This time it's not a roundabout formulation like "this guy, this guy and this guy are all dead", but "you are the only one alive". Meaning that at 23h59, even the culprit was dead. Since Battler didn't kill anyone in any of the first four games, that leaves only suicide… for whatever reason… Then again, considering Beato's state of mind at that point, that's not unplausible.

It's also funny how Battler's demand to repeat that "none of the people in the dining hall had multiple names" was accurate, but not in the way he thought.

edited 3rd Dec '12 3:21:40 PM by Lyendith

If I remember correctly, Shannon's body was slumped over the grated well, and the fantasy narrative had Kanon conveniently falling down it. (So his body was never found) So yes, suicide.

And yeah. Honestly kumasawa and Gohda are really shitty liars.

edited 3rd Dec '12 3:26:58 PM by Oroboro

One thing I never got was how on earth did Yasu pen those two bottle stories before the events of that day actually occurred? Take Battler's characterization, for example- how would she know that, given that Battler only arrived on the island the day of the bomb?

Maybe I'm just fundamentally misunderstanding the nature of the meta-narrative, but it's still a confusing point for me.

This is actually a pretty debated point.

On one hand, It could be taken as evidence that Yasu managed to survive the incident and pen the stories afterwords. There's a pretty in depth theory that says that Yasu is actually Ikkuko, with a decent amount of evidence, though I don't really subscribe to it.

On the other hand, We don't actually know how much the contents of the message bottles match the stories we see in the VN. Some of the "verifiable" details, while somewhat implausible, could be reasonably guessed. The typhoon shutting in the island for instance, there's some narration that says it gets stormy around that time of year pretty much every year. For Battler's characterization, it could all just be made up. There's even some dialogue near the beginning of EP 1 where they muse "Man, getting all the cousins back together like this makes me feel like I'm 12 again". The really tricky part would be writing the story under the assumption that Ange wasn't going to be there. An often overlooked detail though is that Ange WAS sent the same bribe money that Kumasawa's and Nanjo's family received, but she lost it in the chaos after the event. Could be related.

Other than that, yeah, it's tricky.

Yeah, that's confusing. In Episode 5 and 6 we can assume that "Erika Furudo" is basically a fictional character who has little to do with the real-world Erika ('cause seriously, a bitch of that magnitude can't possibly exist :þ), but in the first 4 Episodes there are clearly parts that Beatrice or Tooya couldn't possibly have known − including all the parts involving Ange.

Also, from the discussion with Ootsuki in Episode 4, we can note that they talk about how the message bottles describe the murders, but they never mention a guy with a weird hairdo fighting the witch in a battle of Insane Troll Logic. The contents of the message bottles may actually be completely different from Episode 1 and 2 and just happen to have the same titles…

edited 4th Dec '12 3:01:51 PM by Lyendith

Going off topic here, but it is an interesting side diversion.

In short, I'm designing my own table top RPG system. How does this relate to When They Cry you ask? When They Cry is a major inspiring influence in terms of some of the ideas. Note: Very early stage of progress. Got a spell called "Dervish of Torture" inspired by a certain preperation of "Angiburgers". "Zone of Truth" which gives the GM the option of depicting statements by people in the zone in various ways depending on if its actually true, if the target thinks they're telling the truth but it cannot be certain, such as by writing it as A red truth or a blue truth.

Weapons in this system will have special properties representing certain bonuses or sometimes draw backs. For example, the Bill Hook inflicts 1d6 (a weaker weapon in the "axes" weapon group), has a x3 crit multiplier (normal for the "axes" weapons group) but has the "armor piercing" (ignores a certain amount of damage reduction provided by armor but in ranged weapons inflicts slightly less normal damage) and "psychopathic" (enemies must make a will save in the first round of combat against the wielder or suffer from fear.) properties.

Also have rules for diseases like Hinimizawa Syndrome in development. Do want comments on how accurate the representation is in terms of game mechanics. Unlike other diseases, this disease inflicts Wisdom damage rather than Constitution damage, with additional effects that get progressively worse. The 2nd failed saving throw causes delusions, hallucinations, and low grade insanity (upper L3. a third failed save turns the target Chaotic Evil as they become psychotic, killing people with the closest availible close combat weapon. A fourth failed save makes the target become especially cruel and sadistic in their methods of murder. Any save failed by three or more degrees kills outright as they experience a heart attack from their hallucinations. Wisdom reduced to 0 causes the victim to commit suicide in a gruesome fashion.

Also in When They Cry fashion, there will be plenty of Nightmare Fuel and Paranoia Fuel, especially in terms of monster design. Some of the designs I'm really proud of include a demonically possessed furnace that grabs its victims with chains on the ground, drags them inside, and locks them inside with the metal door and a fiendish panther made of "liquid darkness" capable of travelling via shadows, hitching a ride on a target's shadow and eventually attacking from within that shadow. Resists physical attacks but is vulnerable to fire and ice techniques.

As for the setting, think "modern fantasy". Ideally, the game will be "medium lethality" with analog status ailment severity via a "degrees of success/failure system", designed so that good tactics and team work rules the day, and for extreme luck to be less detrimental.

I've done a few mystery-type campaigns, incorporating various elements from Umineko where applicable. One thing to look out for with a traditional ruleset if you're trying to run a murder mystery adventure is player power. Motive to catch the killer in a closed circle is a bit more difficult when the players can literally force everyone to stay in the same room, and are your typical adventuring sociopaths who would rather just kill everyone to solve the problem anyway. XD

Have something going on right now, with the PC in a closed room murder. Both him and the victim are unconscious in a room locked from the inside, when he comes too, the victim has been killed with cyanide poisoning, and the closed room remains intact. Fun times.

Like hell you are. 1d6/x3 damage/critical? Chaotic Evil? Constitution and Wisdom as ability scores? Zones of Truth?

You're basically modifying the d20 system from D&D to be able to run games similar to When They Cry. I don't mind that in and of itself, but saying you're creating your own system is a bit too much, don't you think? Other than that I support the idea of being able to adapt When They Cry to a gaming system if possible.

I haven't played it, but what you're describing sounds a bit like Urban Arcana mixed with either Taint or Sanity rules. I suggest checking those out for inspiration (Particularly their full versions in Unearthed Arcana). Heck, I suggest reading the entirety of Heroes of Horror as well, that book is great. Contains a lot of really useful advice that applies for horror stories in general.

Among other things, though, there ''are'' diseases that damage mental scores, like cackle fever (which for the record fits Hinamizawa Syndrome perfectly: Inhaled, 1d6 Wis damage, "Symptoms include high fever, disorientation, and frequent bouts of hideous laughter. Also known as “the shrieks.”")

How much of the mood and general themes of When They Cry are you adapting? It could be difficult to properly maintain tension if the characters realize they're hallucinating. Also, it'd be near-impossible to use the Unreliable Narrator to its full power.

Also, off-topic but have you read Witches and Woodlands 3.5? It's honestly kind of inspiring.

Witches and Woodlands is amazing, and everyone should read it.

When the Seacats Cry is pretty great too. [1]

Edit: On another note, Hinamizawa Syndrome is something that should really be handled more with compelling narrative than dice rolls and stats. If you're careful and the player doesn't know the kind of campaign you're running, it's never very hard to trick a PC into killing something because they think it's the right thing to do.

Also time looping. That's a WTC element that can work well with a lot of campaigns if handled correctly.

I've also had a lot of luck recently doing 1 on 1 adventures with a good friend online. It allows you to construct a much more focused personal narrative than a traditional four player setup, and is perfect for psychological horror and mystery.

edited 6th Dec '12 11:05:37 PM by Oroboro

In regards to WTC stuff, what I meant in terms of that statement was that a lot of stuff such as spells (such as Dervish of Torture and Zone of Truth) and other things from that series were an inspiration in terms of ideas. The "psychopathic" weapon property actually came about because I wanted to incorporate billhooks into the game. As such, my intention is to add lots of cool things should the GM want to run a horror themed campaign (the "demon furnace" is a perfect monster for such a campaign) though my intention is more along the lines of "heroic horror". Have another idea called the "Slaypet" which is essentially evil Muppets that were born from the human subconcious via "X is evil" memes. These creatures like to capture "special guests" and the punchline to their dark skits involves on screen murder. For those who want to run a more light hearted campaign, I've got monsters based on absurdity such as the "Crocoduck" and the "Pastaleth" (essentially a spoof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster). One of the major themes of my system is freedom and choice. If you want to run it, I'll have stuff availible to let you do it.

Then there's the non-mechanics/features of WTC that inspire me. I've decided to take note from R7 and be a Trolling Creator with this game (though to be more accurate, the grade of "trolling" would be more like a Gadfly Creator. Working on some monster ideas in which certain high level monsters actually have stronger damage resistance against magic weapons, meaning that mundane weapons are more effective, the very weapons that most players are going to throw away. There's also the big question of "How does one "troll" munchkins without doing anything that harms more normal players in such a way that encourages team work and cooperation?"

You do bring up a good point on Hinimizawa Syndrome and thanks to that, I see a problem with the mechanics. I was focusing too much on the NPC perspective in terms of the scenario (what can the P Cs watch out for to indicate that the disease is in play in the adventure) when I should have been paying more attention to the PC perspective. From that, I've come to the conclusion that in order for the Unreliable Narrator aspect to truly work, the GM must be the one to secretly roll the saving throws and then narrate what the player sees, leaving the P Cs in the dark that they are the actual crazy ones infected.

If my system doesn't seem original, its my fault since I didn't actually explain the core mechanics. I am however researching game systems such as Dn D and Mutants and Masterminds to ascertain what works and doesn't work in order to learn from both successes and failures. In my system, all classes will be able to use special attacks. These special attacks cost TP, which represents mental stamina and can be replenished with certain curative items. TP gain per level is based on class, with a modifer on how many you get being based on either INT ("mage", "rogue", "tinker") WIS ("priest, "warrior", "martial artist", "hunter") or CHA ("commander"). Note: This refers to character archetypes as I haven't finalized class name yet.

When a character levels up, they gain a certain amount of ability points from which they can use to purchase things such as perks and new techniques from their respective class. Think "sphere system" from Final Fantasy X. Techniques are placed into various talent trees. Examples: Chronomancy (very powerful but expensive support talent tree), Ki, Necromancy, Healing) Some talent trees such as Necromancy are shared by more than one class ("mage" and "priest). Note regarding Necromancy: I've established two seperate sub paths in this tree based on whether the character uses that knowledge of life and death to create/bolster undead or to destroy undead. The theme of choice in terms of campaign also apply to character creation. If you want to play it, you'll probably be able to create it with proper multiclassing. For example, if you want to create a character like Homura Akemi, you could do so by multi classing "mage" focusing on the "Chronomancy" talent tree and "tinker" (this class is proficient in guns) focusing on the "explosives" talent tree).

Armor Class is being handeled in a different fashion. Instead of increasing AC, armor instead adds damage reduction. Some armors are more effective against certain types of physical damage (slashing, bludgeon, piercing) in order to encourage players to think smart and have a back up plan and invest in more than one type of weapon. In addition, Each class has a class AC that grows with them as they level up to represent improved combat ability. Instead of a miss chance, cover will add a bonus to AC depending on its grade (flimsy, light, medium, heavy).

Skill checks and saving throws are going to be based on an analogue "degrees of success/failure" system rather than a binary system. Failing a skill check by one degree usually means that no net progress was made. Bad stuff only happens upon larger degrees of failure. The effects of failing a saving throw depends on this system as well. One degree of failure means stuff like reduced damage or a more minor debilitation. Three degrees of failure inflicts critical damage. For example, death techniques inflict rather nasty HP damage instead on one degree of failure (which can still kill if the character is damaged enough), brings you down to "dying" on two degrees of failure, and kills outright on the third degree. On a natural 1, if the character would have succeeded based on modifers alone, then the critical failure is instead treated as one degree of failure. The converse is true upon a natural 20 as well. This mechanic is designed to dampen the power of luck.

edited 7th Dec '12 5:49:09 PM by magnum12

I have no idea about anything related to tabletop RP Gs, but what you're describing sounds totally awesome.

Only thing I have to say is that it will become 100% awesome if you find a way to play the Poor Communication Kills card by somehow giving particular information to only some of the players.

edited 8th Dec '12 12:48:06 AM by Muzozavr

ERROR: Signature not loaded

I'm currently playing Tsubasa… it's a weird collection, with completely crazy stories mixed with perfectly serious and plot-relevant ones… and some that are somewhere between these two.

But really, I feel some of these stories could only be released in Japan, even Played for Laughs. >__< Notably GM Battler. Between the incest, the reification of women and the very unsubtle rape subtext, it can a bit disturbing if you're new to the medium.

And the thing comes just after the Witches' Tabanata, aka Bernkastel's Kick the Dog routine. For that matter, I wonder who Bern writes her letter to in the first TIP… she isn't supposed to have any friends outside of Lambda… and I don't think she would say any kind words to Featherine. Maybe Frederica?

Wow, did a flu eradicate Umineko-reading tropers?

One of the answers I sought was given to me where I expected it the least, in the "Purgatory Mountain" TIP… so that was what Ange saw… except Sakutarō was with her at that moment. So there were two Sakutarōs in the same place…?

I also found the TIPS about Cornelia and 556 strangely heartwarming. For what I understood, since there is an awful number of unreadable kanji packs whenever Eiserne Jungfrau or the Chiesters are involved. >__< But I understood the important parts. Cornelia's fixation on speaking formally despite everyone telling her to stop is pitiful and almost cute at the same time…

edited 14th Dec '12 11:45:33 AM by Lyendith

Heh. Can't say I've read some of those latter tips, so don't quite know what to say.

I dunno. At some point you kind of run out of things to discuss, unless someone is reading it for the first time. Have you checked out the fighting game yet? It's pretty fun, and the story modes range from ridiculously silly to almost!canon.

So uh I've been wondering for a while so I can't help but ask... is there a reason that the examples I see on this wiki treat the Tohya created EP 3-6 in attempt to remember what happened theory as totally canon? It keeps popping up and there seems to be nothing to account for the fact that, as plausible a theory as it may be, it's still just a theory. ...and note that I say created and not wrote, because those are two totally different things, as he can write things without entirely creating them himself.

Anyway, my point is that every page I see on here seems to treat this like 100% canon with no room for argument. I haven't gotten any response on the Umineko discussion page about it, and on the whole it just strikes me as... odd? If anything, the sheer Mind Screw nature of Umineko should make it a bit more ambiguous than that. But I'm probably not the right person to edit the trope page as I am horribly biased.

On a related note, my personal theory about the ending is that Ikuko is Featherine and she helped Tohya write everything down as a way to ease her eternal boredom. Maybe it's kind of silly of me to still believe the magic angle after everything, but that's what I got from it.

I haven't checked up on the Umineko trope page in quite awhile. It's very long.

Ultimately, there's an awful lot of Umineko that's ambiguous enough that it's hard to really write down all the specific objective tropes in it. (Not that I'm a particularly good editor, for that matter mind you.)

I assume what you mean is that From a meta sense, Featherine showed Tohya the various gameboards and let him work it out like that? Interesting thought if that's what you mean. Truthfully when it comes down it, that Tohya wrote/andor created Ep3-6 is less important than the fact that Ep1-2 were written by Yasu, imo.

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that the latter episodes were created by fans trying to imitate the bottle letters (Yasu's writings)? And then it was revealed that the most prominent one was Ikuko, which in reality is Tohya? And it's implied that Episode 3, at least, was in fact written in real life, which is why everybody suspects poor Eva so much?

I didn't check OMK yet; since I'm not really a fan of fighting games, that doesn't help…

It bugged me too… since it's written everywhere like this I thought I had missed a bit of dialogue where it was said… but apparently I'm not the only one. Sure Featherine makes Ange read Dawn as a manuscript she wrote, but that in itself is a fantasy scene, and in the Epilogue Ange clearly says she has never met Tooya. And there are clearly parts in Ep3-6 that Battler or Ikuko couldn't have possibly known. So I like your theory somewhat… yes it means believing magic exists in Umineko, but there are parts of the story that can't be explained by denying it entirely imo.

Well, Eva was the only one to survive a totally unpredictable accident by hiding in a mansion nobody knew of… that alone made her incredibly suspicious I think. The Banquet forgery may have added oil to the fire though.

edited 15th Dec '12 3:15:38 AM by Lyendith

Found some pretty interesting things lately.

The Winchester rifle is compatible with 410 bore shells (i.e. small gauge shotgun rounds). In addition it is also compatible with suppressors.

As a result:

R7 really did his research. The naming of the Ciester sisters is added Fridge Brilliance (especially 45 and 410) as it is potentially a clue as to the solution to the 4th novel.

Since we know from the 5th novel that the walls between rooms in the island are very thin, as a result, the use of a supressor is mandatory for many of the murder scenarios in Umineko to make any sense. Weapon upgrades are allowed under Knox's Decalogue.

The solution to the 4th novel is that "specialist rounds" were used. "Specialist rounds" is defined as any type of ammunition that would now be expected. In this case, the "specialist rounds" allow for a switch from "rifle mode" to "shotgun mode". This means that Battler's observation in the 4th novel about highly destructive weapons being used (such as for exammple a short range shot gun blast) was absolutely spot on. "Specialist rounds" are generally allowed under Knox's decalogue.

One who has confirmed "no knowledge of guns" would not know about "specialist rounds" or if said weapons in the arsenal are compatible with suppressors or other "upgrades". It also means that competence with shots at anything longer than short range is HIGHLY suspect.

That thing about the author theory being 100% canon also bugs me. The "timelines theory" is equally anti-fantasy. There exists a pretty interesting scientific theory regarding time lines, especially in the sense of "branching timelines".

Kaekra shards is NOT a fantasy theory. All Kaekra shards really are is essentially a "visual aid" for the purposes of visualizing "branching timelines". The term, "another world" is misleading as the term "alternate timeline" is more accurate."

edited 15th Dec '12 2:32:22 PM by magnum12

Eh? The 5th novel indicates the walls between the guesthouse rooms are thin enough for a dedicated stalker to listen through all night, but the vast majority of murder scenarios take place in the mansion or the chapel, at times and in places where there's little danger of a gunshot being overheard (Especially with the thunderstorm.

In fact, in at least one case, the gunshot is heard, at the end of EP 1 when Natsuhi challenges the killer.

Edit: In any case, Kakera theory and Author theory aren't mutually exclusive.

edited 15th Dec '12 3:07:20 PM by Oroboro

There is going to be another Higurashi anime.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-12-15/ryukishi07-higurashi-outbreak-short-story-gets-anime

"Strategy? Spacing? I just keep punching until I hit something." - Sol Badguy

... Right. I saw that article earlier, why the hell didn't I think to link it here?

Sounds interesting, that's one of those side stories that's been covered in other media, isn't it?

As much as that is a good, logical point, I doubt that a thunder storm is adequete cover for the murders from a scientific perspective.

The noise generated by a thunder clap (at close range) is 120 decibles (dB). The noise generated by say a typical shot gun, magnum, and many rifles is in the range of 145-170 dB. For perspective, the noise generated by a vacumn cleaner and a motorcycle clocks in at 80/110 dB respectively. The threshold for pain/risk of permanent hearing damage in a human ear is 130 dB.

In essence, even if the shot were perfectly timed to match the timing of a thunder clap, the noise from the gun would easily overpower the noise emitted from the thunder. However, since a typical suppressor has a noise reduction rate of about 35 dB, the use of a suppressor DOES make the use of a thunder storm as cover very plausible. Its just that the use of a suppressor is required for that plan to work.