Does that extend to firearms? And could it be made easier if the deal happened under the table, perhaps with the US company being in a precarious financial position that the government doesn't seem interested in saving it from?

edited 26th Nov '14 5:14:34 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Yeah, the Pigeon was nearly dead in the water because at one point the USA refused to let buyers have access to stuff that they'd need to maintain the bloody things.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

"The Pigeon"? What's that?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I know. Blame the ITAR.

There are also rumours of tracking devices^note  And devices that switch off functions being fitted into exported F-16 aircraft.

The F-35.

edited 26th Nov '14 5:21:55 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Does this ITAR apply to rejected-for-mass-production prototypes and technology demonstrators like the YF-23?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

• In April 2006, the Australian Government was reported to have chosen EADS MRH-90 troop-lift helicopters in preference to U.S. Sikorsky models because "the European bid offered the ADF better access to crucial computer source code than the Sikorsky bid".[68]
• ITAR controls, as well as separate policy concerns, have hampered international cooperation in development of the F-35 Lightning II, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Both the UK and the Australian Governments demanded a guarantee that the U.S. will fully disclose technology needed for the JSF project before they would commit to further involvement in the project.[69][70][71]
• Concerns over connections between the Boeing 787 and the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber prompted Boeing to take elaborate steps cleansing the commercial jet of any military technology. The issue arose when Boeing engineers, fearing indictment and penalties, refused to sign forms declaring that the 787 was "ITAR-free." As a result Boeing conducted extensive research on the source of technology implemented on the 787. They removed all military technology and either found a commercial source for the same technology or replaced it with technology derived from a commercial source.[72]
• For the F-X2 program, the Brazilian government have chosen the French Rafale over the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet due to concerns over technology transfer barriers and ITAR regulations, regardless that the Brazilian air force and the majority of their pilots preferred the Super Hornet over other bidders. Nelson Jobim, Defense minister of Brazil said: "the U.S. government could give no upfront guarantee and Brazil had seen a series of U.S. technology embargoes." The lucrative contract which will be signed after the 2010 Brazilian elections[dated info], is for 36 aircraft and will be extended to over 100 units in the next decade.[73][74]

So apparently even civilian airliners are subject to arms trade restrictions.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

But all of those examples involve military tech that is already embraced by the military for full production.

edited 26th Nov '14 6:35:42 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

I'm just commenting on the absurdity of ITAR in general.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

Yeah, it's not that good when it publically creates tension with what are supposed to be your closest allies. Then again, it happened with the Nuclear Bomb.

Keep Rolling On

@Marc:

The State Dept. and The DOD can give a company their blessing to market a design overseas. The stumbling block is that if is was a rejected design buyers might not take it:

• It's not compatible with NATO/US standards

• If a superpower didn't want it, why should they?

On the other hand, it might be cheaper or they could get an offer of local production. The Cadillac Gage Stingray was rejected but did find a buyer. Malaysia did adopt the XM-8 for their special forces.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be a case on The First 48

A foreign company might want it because they might be interested in seeing what design elements they can reverse-engineer for their own purposes — i.e. they can pick elements that they find useful and incorporate it into some other project that they're currently working on.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

This happens quite a bit, it would break This Very Wiki if we tried to list all the AK-47/74 variants and those rifles that use it's action.

One of the reasons companies backed out of the US Army carbine competition was that the Army wanted the specs of the winner so that other companies could make the rifle cheaper. Thus any new innovations wouldn't be new and exclusive for long...

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be a case on The First 48

And everything that was also gained after World War II, and even now in China...

Keep Rolling On

NYT reports US commandos with Yemeni special forces in support raid eastern Yemen, rescues eight hostages from al-Qaeda-affiliated forces.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be a case on The First 48

No surprise there, it could be months before his replacement is confirmed by the Senate.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

I feel bad for Hagel, poor guy was disowned by his own party, and then made a scapegoat by his boss because he dared to not be a complete and utter spineless yes man. I mean I'm not sure if this problem is unique to Obama, but from what I hear he surrounds himself with a group of advisors from outside the DOD to make decisions, often with no input from actual military leaders.

I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. There have been times in American history when the DoD has badly needed its neck wound in.

edited 28th Nov '14 6:43:28 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei

And that's a bit of an exaggeration. The reason the Insane Admiral and General Ripper trope took off in The '60s? The World War Two junior officers can come of age and were now fighting a more political war. They were used to having all of Europe and Asia as their battlefield. Instead they were fighting a war so unconventional that one book on the subject is called "Learning to Eat Soup With A Knife."

This is like trying to ask an award winning pastry chef to boil you a hot dog from the bargin bin. Sure he'll do it, but he won't like it.

The most Blood Knight of American generals, Thomas S. Power, famously didn't have a college education. He was the last generation of WWII era pilots who worked their way up the ranks without sheepskin. In The '80s, Rogue Warrior author Ricard Marcinko tried to get his enlisted SEAL's into flight school, he was denied. Flying is for officers only in the Navy and the Air Force.

MacArthur, did try to go over Truman's head, by appealing to Congress and got canned for his hubris. "Bomb's Away" LeMay just wanted to run the war his way. LBJ on the other hand famously boasted that American planes couldn't bomb an outhouse without orders from the White House.

Yeah, yeah, the Operation Northwoods arguement. Remember, this was a proposal that JFK rightly rejected. Anytime, any boss asks for options or proposals, nothing guarantees they are good.

At the lofty officer levels, all promotions come from the US Senate. Most officers over the rank of Major/Commander are one part politician and one part soldier. Sadly, some are just as much yes-men as the DOD civilians are.

edited 28th Nov '14 7:02:41 PM by TairaMai

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be a case on The First 48

Strictly speaking, "airman" would refer to any crew member of an aircraft, not just the ones who pilot it. Air Force has always been a bit lax about the dividing lines between the various cliques compared to other branches of the military (which is why the Army guys seem to think we're obnoxiously lax about rank. At least, that's what my squadron commander, George, was telling me when we were doing shots at the First Sergeant's house the other night...

Also: Wee, finally have internet in my new house.

I don't have furniture, but I have internet.

Also, I bought a washer and dryer at the BX, ended up saving like $350 because they were on sale despite the AAFES folks forgetting to actually put up signs saying such. Did you know that washing machines and dryers don't come with all the bits you need to use them? I didn't.

Ah, had to help a friend set up her washer and dryer..and then run back to get the vent and cord...

A lot of people don't know that AAFES has to match any local price. If it's not on sale, overstock or discontinued, if there is a lower price on the local market, AAFES has to match it. It's baked into their regs and bylaws.

All night at the computer, cuz people ain't that great. I keep to myself so I won't be a case on The First 48

Pros and cons of distinct military services versus a unified military?

Strange priorities that whoever is handling your home's infrastructure and furnishing has. Either that, or the furniture delivery takes more time than setting up Internet infrastructure does.

edited 30th Nov '14 12:37:53 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

The latter. My furniture is traveling from Japan by sealift, I traveled by plane and automobile. They sent my stuff in two shipments, the smaller of the two did actually get sent by air and is going to probably be delivered next week or so, but it's mostly clothes and kitchen stuff.

Standard procedure for cross-continental moves. If you've got half a brain cell. Just remember to check on the wooden stuff, pronto. Containers and sea conditions can do weird things to furniture (voice of experience). Best to find the new out sooner than later if it turns out warped.

edited 30th Nov '14 3:54:08 AM by Euodiachloris

With the need for specialized training, doctrines, and personnel in today’s militaries as driven by technological demands, “unified” militaries are pretty much technically nonexistent as rivalries will happen no matter how you label your army, air force, and navy; the Chinese Communist military (The Other Chinese Army in Taiwan also exists) theoretically is a unified People’s Liberation Army with the Air Force and Navy being sub-departments, but it has deal with the same kind of interservice rivalries that any other military has.