Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I guess it could happen. If the reverse could, why not this?

Also, for the Dance In The Vampire Bund entries, they need a rewrite, and Gabe in there as well.

• The Three Lords of clans Rozenmann, Ivanovic in Li are all nasty customers in Dance In The Vampire Bund with Ivanovic being the most overtly brutal of the lot. In the past, the three destroyed and usurped all the other great vampire clans before murdering their sovereign, Queen Lucretia, and only sparing Lucretia's young daughter Min as a future tool for breeding for one of them. While Li hasn't been seen as much, he, Ivanovic and Rozenmann participate in a contest to determine who has possession of Mina: by sending their best assassins after her love interest Akira with the winner taking the prize. And subjecting Mina to a degrading chastity test so she knows she is the proper of the three.
  • Ivanovic, as the most vicious and unhinged of the three Lords leads a brutal attack on the Bund to capture Mina for his own pleasure. Once there, he deliberately targets civilians, and has the innocent fangless vampires executed to draw Mina out of hiding. He also uses as shock troops werewolves he's tortured into feral beasts that have forgotten their own humanity. Ivanovic at points attempts to rape Mina when he can and has a disturbing taste for young girls, not caring that Mina is in her younger body, as opposed to her adult form and even declares he'll only enjoy her adult body after he's had his pleasure of the younger one. In the past,he was also Grigori Rasputin and drove Russia into chaos and ruin. Mina barely rescued Grand Duchess Anastasia from being dragged to his bed chambers at the end.
  • Rozenmann, The Chessmaster. The most elegant, handsome, well dressed and polite of the three Lords, Rozenman is also the most intelligent and manipulative. He tricks Ivanovic into invading the Bund, knowing the death and destruction that will result. Planning for his fellow Lord's death, Rozenmann set up Mina to be kidnapped and replaced by a doppleganger whose terrorist attacks he was secretly financing and patronizing. With Mina in his hands, Rozenmann has Akira killed (Though he was Faking the Dead) solely to break Mina further and inject her with a drug to freeze her in adult form to rape her later. While Ivanovic is a wild, furious warlord, Rozenmann manipulates nearly every bad thing to happen in the series, with nary a care as to the many innocent lives or mental trauma he leaves behind him in his quest of domination.
  • Comparatively minor villain he may be, but the vampire crime boss Gabe from volume 11 uses his short screen time well. Gabe is a vampire sworn to Rozenmann living in New York where he's a vampire, pedophile and maker of child pornography who routinely taunts a stripper about paying a visit to her daughter Susy, who can't be more than six. After he learns the stripper is sheltering the runaway Mina, Gabe violently murders her friend and storms her apartment, immediately noticing how Susy is prettier than he imagined and attempting to seize her before Mina stops him. Gabe uses Susy and her mother as hostages so Mina surrenders under promises they won't be harmed. While Rozenmann's honorable werewolf retainer Gerhard is willing to give the assurance, Gabe makes it clear he has zero intention of not coming back for Susy and when Mina asks to feed, he comments he thought her child form was much hotter and if he can have Susy when Mina is done. Mina remarks he has mistaken her grievously before she rips his throat out, commenting his blood is as foul as his soul.

edited 2nd Aug '13 4:37:18 PM by Lightysnake

on Commodus and Vorster. on Jeff.

edited 2nd Aug '13 5:11:54 PM by VeryMelon

Voting On Jeff, Shido, Neutron and Eddy's brother. For the latter it's because, although I haven't seen the show, I don't think it can hit that bare minimum level where redemption is an impossiblity because it's a kid's show of lesser depth than say, Avatar The Last Airbender (plus honestly I don't believe in a one-scene wonder CM). Plus physical assault and torment is still below the baseline henious standards, since under that criteria we could qualfiy 80% of comic book villians as meeting the bare minimum standards to be considered as CMs.

For Jeff Family Guy is just such a dark show with so many henious deeds and not I don't think it's possible for it to have a Complete Monster.

For Shido it sounds like they are an irredeamable bastard, but that doesn't equal a Complete Monster. The closest he'd get is sthe trying to kill someone's family, but that is still only a step towards it, I just don't see them being the embodiment of pure evil that this trope is supposed to be. I honestly think that he would stick out on a list of complete monsters as not being a contender.

For Neutron, I have to go with Ambar's logic and say that he's overshadowed by people with the same level of power who have the ambition to actually go out and do even worse things.

edited 2nd Aug '13 5:48:31 PM by Shaoken

I think the way he's played as a domestic abuser with no redeeming qualities extremely heinously pushes him over the age. It darkens the show considerably.

Have we voted on all the MLP fanworks examples? I know we voted to cut the FIW examples and the Mentally Advanced Series examples but aside from that I don't remember us having a decisive vote on the other examples.

FIW needs to be cleaned. Fluttershy and Twilight are still listed as Complete Monsters and the show isn't taken seriously enough for any of them to qualify. And if Jeff is going I say we cut Fluttershy's dad too, he's pretty much the same deal. (almost every single one of the mane cast is played more heinously than him and they aren't serious characters. He is apparently but still pales.)

Also voting no on Eddy's Brother and Jeff from Family Guy. Both are just Jerkasses.

edited 2nd Aug '13 5:59:21 PM by Klavice

He's still basically a bully. He doesn't kill anyone, doesn't cripple anyone, basically if he disappeared from that point onward the show would go back to the way it was. When we established the baseline heniouness limiter, this is the sort of example it was supposed to block out; character's who are the worst that show has to offer, but are so laughably out of place when compared to the Fire Lord Ozai's of the list. Taking a quick look over it you have either confirmed murderers or attempted murderers, people who are selling drugs to children and attempting murder via drugs, liberal applications of Mind Rape, etc.

In comparison, Eddy's brother is just a bully.

Nothing like that even happens in Ed... though. And again, we already decided him.

Which is the point, and there's still a debate going on about him so I'd say there hasn't been a decision yet.

As said before, wasn't he already discussed and voted in? I don't see why we should bar a domestic abuser whose crimes are played seriously in a lighthearted work when they're showed to be extremely heinous and having left acute mental scars on the victim.

And why, again, are we suddenly extending criteria to 'heinous next to one another?' That's not how this works and was never how it was supposed to.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:05:12 PM by Lightysnake

Um, yes it always has. That is literally what the baseline henious standard is; a comparison to see if they stack up to other Complete Monsters. That was the reason we gave for discounting my little pony villians (next to the impossiblity of being irredeamable).

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:10:19 PM by Shaoken

Woah, woah, let's all calm down. Yes, Eddy's Brother was already voted on, and he was counted as a CM on the Cartoon Network page. Now that that's out of the way, let's go to another topic.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:20:19 PM by AustinDR

@15041 How far does one have to go in order to qualify? That guy has done quite a few things to destroy the status quo. He killed Tadao, he caused Miki to miss Tadao's funeral, he got Kagami fired from her own firm and caused her to lose her Law license, he beat up Konata, causing her to lose three of her teeth, and when things took a turn against him, he killed Patricia, burned down the aforementioned firm, and for his last act, shot and killed Ayano (and that was his second attempt on her life, his first being to trap her inside the burning building). All fic long, he has had not one real Pet the Dog moment. Not a single one. And he also stands out among all the other villains from both that fic and its prequel, Loss of Innocence, such as Tsukasa's rapist Ryosuke and his cohorts, her short-lived punk friend Yuka Miyakawa, Tsukasa herself for some time after having been raped, and Patricia (following a beating by Tsukasa; also eventually came around). If none of that qualifies him for this trope, then what would?

We are calm. That he was already voted on once doesn't automatically mean that he's completely off limits, plus looking back through the first page of search results and I still haven't found a part where anyone voted on him, more that people talked about him and other people talked about different things.

EDIT IN: Looking through the thred, I found maybe two votes for him back on 328 and that's it. EDIT OUT

I move to have Eddy's brother removed for the following reasons:

1) He doesn't meet the irredeamable standard. Nothing he's done up and makes it impossible for redemption to occur. That it never happens is irrelevant; we've seen people who have done worse get redeemed.

2) Half of the example for him talks up how he makes everyone else pull an Even Evil Has Standards moment.

3) As I said before, I don't believe in a one scene Complete Monster.

4) Baseline henious factor; look at every other example on the page and you see people whose's least henious crime involves either literal Mind Rape, attempted murder, or inflciting Cold-Blooded Torture that makes brutal physical abuse seem less henious in comparison. Simply put, he sticks out like a sore thumb on that page, which is why we included the baseline heniousness subclause to begin with.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:37:51 PM by Shaoken

With Eddy's Brother, it's been shown that he enjoys bullying and torturing kids. Since he loves to torture kids, he most likely would've never stopped had Ed didn't have a smart moment and caused the door to his mobile home to smash him in the face. Basically, the main idea with Eddy's Brother is that unlike the Peach Creek kids, his abuse of Eddy is made more horrific because it's one of his own blood that he's beating up. From a certain point, not all of the Cul-de-sac kids were evil. In fact, them hunting down the Eds to beat them up seemed justified since they really screwed up that time and severly injured the kids. It's more of even jerks have standards. The Kankers, on the other hand, did have an Even Evil Has Standards moment. I'm not trying to defend the entry, I'm just trying to give information on what I know about him.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:39:22 PM by AustinDR

Well the point stands that it doesn't look like we ever had a proper vote on him, since every single instance of him I found with the search function (made worse by the fact he doesn't have a name) had him brought up whenever we were discussing a lot of examples at once. If I had to guess he was put in before the TRS thread where Fast Eddie said "clean up or it gets cut" and has just been overlooked ever since then.

EDIT: Thinking more on this, perhaps what we need is a sandbox page that is listing what characters we are currently discussing and a list of the keeps, cuts and decide laters. Only problem with that is how much pain it would be to keep up to date.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:44:36 PM by Shaoken

Honestly, Shaoken, it sounds like Shido meets the heinous standard. Several murders, plus arson and dicking with people plus brutal beatings...seems pretty fitting.

Well if we really are going to have to do a second vote then I might as well re-put in my support for the Ed Edd and Eddy example for what it counts.

on Shindo and Eddy's Brother.

I have to say "no" on Eddy's Brother. He seems like another (if slightly different) manifestation of the previously encountered case where "worst person in a work" is not synonymous with Complete Monster.

A Sandbox.Complete Monster Debates Tracker seems like a good idea.

on Shido

edited 2nd Aug '13 9:26:08 PM by xie323

Can someone give me a link to where Shido was discussed? The name is not ringing a bell.

I'm neutral about Eddy's brother, but a few things:

Regarding the whole one scene thing, yes he only appears once but he has major significance to the story. His abuse and belittlement of Eddy is what caused Eddy to act like a greedy Jerkass throughout the series.

As for heinousness, well, he's definitely the worst for the setting. It's a show with only 12 characters, all of them preteens, and adults are offscreen (except Eddy's brother). In a setting like that, an adult abusing his 12-year-old brother and having done it all his life is, at the very least, the closest to a CM on the show.

Now, I think Eddy's brother was discussed back when we were cleaning the Cartoon Network page, so I'll look through those discussions to see why he was voted keep at the time.

EDIT: I think the discussion for Eddy's brother started around here.

edited 2nd Aug '13 10:10:35 PM by TVRulezAgain

It's just within the last couple of pages. Sea Rover brought him up. I think he's from a fanfic