Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Total posts: [115,739]
1 ... 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 ... 4630
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

edited 7th Nov '17 9:59:04 AM by Fighteer

15026 LargoQuagmire2nd Aug 2013 12:19:12 PM , Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I've come home and I'm so cold...
Yeah, we never really resolved Jeff, because the debate snowballed into Commodus/Eddy's Brother. I don't even know who voted.
15027 HamburgerTime2nd Aug 2013 12:24:26 PM from Right behind you , Relationship Status: I know
Royally Yours.
Still voting [tdown] on Jeff. My argument is that while he may be the only villain never to be Played for Laughs, some of the things that are played for laughs are (or would be if they were played seriously) worse than him. Quagmire himself is implied to be a rapist, and that's not even getting into the stuff Carter gets up to.
[up] [tup] Anything that's played for laughs does not count. It was explicitly stated in the beginning of this thread that this is why no one in South Park can qualify.

edited 2nd Aug '13 12:30:22 PM by SeaRover

15029 HamburgerTime2nd Aug 2013 12:31:22 PM from Right behind you , Relationship Status: I know
Royally Yours.
[up] I'm not saying they count, I'm saying they're more heinous than Jeff, even though they're not serious characters and he is.
15030 Hodor2nd Aug 2013 12:51:31 PM from Westeros
Cleric of Banjo
Which I believe is considered a disqualifying factor (that characters who do more heinous behavior aren't monsters).

I'm not totally comfortable with the Eddy Brother example staying, but in that situation, there isn't really the kind of hypocrisy (for lack of a better word) present in Family Guy.

I think there's a difference between distinguishing between Amusing Injuries and those which aren't (very common in cartoons and cleverly used in the Roger Rabbit film), and attempting to present a Domestic Abuser as heinous then the main character does the same or worse all the time.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
I mean, bad stuff happened in Ed, Ed'n Eddy but for the most part it was pranking or pretty harmless kid fights.

Then comes Eddy's brother who is a real, serious domestic abuser. I think he meets the standard there
@Sea Rover

The fact that a character can't qualify if they are played for laughs, does not prevent that character from disqualifying another character who isn't played for laughs, but whose actions are, in actual fact, less heinous.


I think that when Jeff was originally voted on, we all allowed the dark nature of the episode and the fact that he was treated seriously to blind us to the fact that numerous other characters in the show are as bad or worse, just played less seriously. With that in mind, I'm going to say let's cut the bastard and never discuss Family Guy again.
15033 nrjxll2nd Aug 2013 01:13:53 PM , Relationship Status: Not war

Also, since it seems like it's coming to an actual vote now: [tup] for the inclusion of Commodus.
15034 HamburgerTime2nd Aug 2013 01:34:15 PM from Right behind you , Relationship Status: I know
Royally Yours.
We've disqualified villains when characters presented as sympathetic do worse than villains (often due to probable moral bankruptcy on the writer's part but sometimes not), so I don't see why we shouldn't apply the same principle to comedic characters who do worse than serious characters.
15035 ACW2nd Aug 2013 03:39:32 PM from Arlington, VA (outside of DC) , Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
If nobody objects, I'll add the Korean and other film examples later, then.
15037 HamburgerTime2nd Aug 2013 03:46:38 PM from Right behind you , Relationship Status: I know
Royally Yours.
[up][up] I don't see why it's annoying. If a writer wants to make his heroes terrible people, either due to his own incompetence or a warped moral code, I don't see why we have to take them being heroes at face value.

This does make me wonder again, though, if since we don't take Word of God into account it would actually be possible for a character intended to be sympathetic but communicated so utterly terribly in this respect to qualify for CM. Wasn't there discussion a while back if the protagonists of some Neo-Nazi propaganda book qualified, or something?

edited 2nd Aug '13 3:46:47 PM by HamburgerTime

15038 ACW2nd Aug 2013 04:28:36 PM from Arlington, VA (outside of DC) , Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
[up]I guess it could happen. If the reverse could, why not this?
Also, for the Dance in the Vampire Bund entries, they need a rewrite, and Gabe in there as well.

  • The Three Lords of clans Rozenmann, Ivanovic in Li are all nasty customers in Dance in the Vampire Bund with Ivanovic being the most overtly brutal of the lot. In the past, the three destroyed and usurped all the other great vampire clans before murdering their sovereign, Queen Lucretia, and only sparing Lucretia's young daughter Min as a future tool for breeding for one of them. While Li hasn't been seen as much, he, Ivanovic and Rozenmann participate in a contest to determine who has possession of Mina: by sending their best assassins after her love interest Akira with the winner taking the prize. And subjecting Mina to a degrading chastity test so she knows she is the proper of the three.
    • Ivanovic, as the most vicious and unhinged of the three Lords leads a brutal attack on the Bund to capture Mina for his own pleasure. Once there, he deliberately targets civilians, and has the innocent fangless vampires executed to draw Mina out of hiding. He also uses as shock troops werewolves he's tortured into feral beasts that have forgotten their own humanity. Ivanovic at points attempts to rape Mina when he can and has a disturbing taste for young girls, not caring that Mina is in her younger body, as opposed to her adult form and even declares he'll only enjoy her adult body after he's had his pleasure of the younger one. In the past,he was also Grigori Rasputin and drove Russia into chaos and ruin. Mina barely rescued Grand Duchess Anastasia from being dragged to his bed chambers at the end.
    • Rozenmann, The Chessmaster. The most elegant, handsome, well dressed and polite of the three Lords, Rozenman is also the most intelligent and manipulative. He tricks Ivanovic into invading the Bund, knowing the death and destruction that will result. Planning for his fellow Lord's death, Rozenmann set up Mina to be kidnapped and replaced by a doppleganger whose terrorist attacks he was secretly financing and patronizing. With Mina in his hands, Rozenmann has Akira killed (Though he was Faking the Dead) solely to break Mina further and inject her with a drug to freeze her in adult form to rape her later. While Ivanovic is a wild, furious warlord, Rozenmann manipulates nearly every bad thing to happen in the series, with nary a care as to the many innocent lives or mental trauma he leaves behind him in his quest of domination.
    • Comparatively minor villain he may be, but the vampire crime boss Gabe from volume 11 uses his short screen time well. Gabe is a vampire sworn to Rozenmann living in New York where he's a vampire, pedophile and maker of child pornography who routinely taunts a stripper about paying a visit to her daughter Susy, who can't be more than six. After he learns the stripper is sheltering the runaway Mina, Gabe violently murders her friend and storms her apartment, immediately noticing how Susy is prettier than he imagined and attempting to seize her before Mina stops him. Gabe uses Susy and her mother as hostages so Mina surrenders under promises they won't be harmed. While Rozenmann's honorable werewolf retainer Gerhard is willing to give the assurance, Gabe makes it clear he has zero intention of not coming back for Susy and when Mina asks to feed, he comments he thought her child form was much hotter and if he can have Susy when Mina is done. Mina remarks he has mistaken her grievously before she rips his throat out, commenting his blood is as foul as his soul.

edited 2nd Aug '13 4:37:18 PM by Lightysnake

15040 VeryMelon2nd Aug 2013 05:11:28 PM from United States , Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
[tup] on Commodus and Vorster. [tdown] on Jeff.

edited 2nd Aug '13 5:11:54 PM by VeryMelon

15041 Shaoken2nd Aug 2013 05:38:28 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
Voting [tdown]On Jeff, Shido, Neutron and Eddy's brother. For the latter it's because, although I haven't seen the show, I don't think it can hit that bare minimum level where redemption is an impossiblity because it's a kid's show of lesser depth than say, Avatar: The Last Airbender (plus honestly I don't believe in a one-scene wonder CM). Plus physical assault and torment is still below the baseline henious standards, since under that criteria we could qualfiy 80% of comic book villians as meeting the bare minimum standards to be considered as CMs.

For Jeff Family Guy is just such a dark show with so many henious deeds and not I don't think it's possible for it to have a Complete Monster.

For Shido it sounds like they are an irredeamable bastard, but that doesn't equal a Complete Monster. The closest he'd get is sthe trying to kill someone's family, but that is still only a step towards it, I just don't see them being the embodiment of pure evil that this trope is supposed to be. I honestly think that he would stick out on a list of complete monsters as not being a contender.

For Neutron, I have to go with Ambar's logic and say that he's overshadowed by people with the same level of power who have the ambition to actually go out and do even worse things.

edited 2nd Aug '13 5:48:31 PM by Shaoken

I think the way he's played as a domestic abuser with no redeeming qualities extremely heinously pushes him over the age. It darkens the show considerably.
15043 Klavice2nd Aug 2013 05:52:24 PM , Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Have we voted on all the MLP fanworks examples? I know we voted to cut the FIW examples and the Mentally Advanced Series examples but aside from that I don't remember us having a decisive vote on the other examples.

FIW needs to be cleaned. Fluttershy and Twilight are still listed as Complete Monsters and the show isn't taken seriously enough for any of them to qualify. And if Jeff is going I say we cut Fluttershy's dad too, he's pretty much the same deal. (almost every single one of the mane cast is played more heinously than him and they aren't serious characters. He is apparently but still pales.)

Also voting no on Eddy's Brother and Jeff from Family Guy. Both are just Jerkasses.

edited 2nd Aug '13 5:59:21 PM by Klavice

15044 Shaoken2nd Aug 2013 05:56:06 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
He's still basically a bully. He doesn't kill anyone, doesn't cripple anyone, basically if he disappeared from that point onward the show would go back to the way it was. When we established the baseline heniouness limiter, this is the sort of example it was supposed to block out; character's who are the worst that show has to offer, but are so laughably out of place when compared to the Fire Lord Ozai's of the list. Taking a quick look over it you have either confirmed murderers or attempted murderers, people who are selling drugs to children and attempting murder via drugs, liberal applications of Mind Rape, etc.

In comparison, Eddy's brother is just a bully.
15045 HamburgerTime2nd Aug 2013 05:59:40 PM from Right behind you , Relationship Status: I know
Royally Yours.
[up] Nothing like that even happens in Ed... though. And again, we already decided him.
15046 Shaoken2nd Aug 2013 06:01:59 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
[up]Which is the point, and there's still a debate going on about him so I'd say there hasn't been a decision yet.
[up][up] As said before, wasn't he already discussed and voted in? I don't see why we should bar a domestic abuser whose crimes are played seriously in a lighthearted work when they're showed to be extremely heinous and having left acute mental scars on the victim.

And why, again, are we suddenly extending criteria to 'heinous next to one another?' That's not how this works and was never how it was supposed to.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:05:12 PM by Lightysnake

15048 Shaoken2nd Aug 2013 06:09:22 PM , Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
[up]Um, yes it always has. That is literally what the baseline henious standard is; a comparison to see if they stack up to other Complete Monsters. That was the reason we gave for discounting my little pony villians (next to the impossiblity of being irredeamable).

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:10:19 PM by Shaoken

15049 AustinDR2nd Aug 2013 06:18:13 PM from Ripley, MS , Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
He will kill again.
Woah, woah, let's all calm down. Yes, Eddy's Brother was already voted on, and he was counted as a CM on the Cartoon Network page. Now that that's out of the way, let's go to another topic.

edited 2nd Aug '13 6:20:19 PM by AustinDR

@15041 How far does one have to go in order to qualify? That guy has done quite a few things to destroy the status quo. He killed Tadao, he caused Miki to miss Tadao's funeral, he got Kagami fired from her own firm and caused her to lose her Law license, he beat up Konata, causing her to lose three of her teeth, and when things took a turn against him, he killed Patricia, burned down the aforementioned firm, and for his last act, shot and killed Ayano (and that was his second attempt on her life, his first being to trap her inside the burning building). All fic long, he has had not one real Pet the Dog moment. Not a single one. And he also stands out among all the other villains from both that fic and its prequel, Loss of Innocence, such as Tsukasa's rapist Ryosuke and his cohorts, her short-lived punk friend Yuka Miyakawa, Tsukasa herself for some time after having been raped, and Patricia (following a beating by Tsukasa; also eventually came around). If none of that qualifies him for this trope, then what would?

Total posts: 115,739
1 ... 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 ... 4630