Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Should we cut Clu from the YMMV page of Dream Drop Distance? Frollo is there too, but I don't think he does anything noteworthy in it and it's a Zero Context Example.

Also yes, cut the American Dad examples. Unless it's someone like Jeff from Family Guy, (whose 100% not played for laughs) cut it with prejudice.

edited 3rd May '13 2:18:34 PM by Klavice

I cut Claw, adding a note so that if anyone still thinks he counts, to come here and bring up evidence as his writeup was terrible.

Was going to cut the AD examples but found somone had already cut the hot tub (adding the note "he was disscussed, he's not a cm") and given Steveerino a different writeup. The same writeup I proposed, was not me who made the change, honest. Shall I cut him too?

Here's an example from Mahou Sensei Negima.

Mahou Sensei Negima! has the secondary villain Tsukuyomi. She starts as a mere Punch Clock Villain with shades of Psychopathic Manchild and a crush on her ex-sempai, Setsuna Sakurazaki. But as time passes, she becomes really, really creepily obsessed with Setsuna and also seems to derive sexual pleasure from murder. She's also probably the only villain in the series who's evil with no Anti-Villain tendencies or Freudian Excuse for her actions, which just makes her even more creepy than most other bad guys.

Plus, there's the fact that it was heavily implied that she was going to rape Setsuna when she hit Setsuna with a Clothing Damage spell, followed by pinning her to the ground and slowly and deliberately cutting off Setsuna's Sarashi bra.

Aside from the implied rape, this seems like standard villainy. Nothing really stands out that makes this character a monster.

Yep, cut Tsukuyomi

Sounds like a good example of why "morally worst villain in a series" does not necessarily equate to this trope.

Along the same lines, I support a cut for Higuchi of Death Note, although I'd like a little elaboration on him.

From what I remember of Death Note, Higuchi is the leader of the Yotsuba, a group that wants to use the Death Note for their own ends. Nothing he does (except want to marry Misa who's 12 years his junior, though that falls more under Values Dissonance, and is usually legal in Japan.) is any worse than what Light did. The arc was very boring to me and the Yotsuba never really did anything that was anywhere near as bad as Light. He may not have Light's excuse, but he's not a monster.

I'd say cut for Higuchi as well.

edited 3rd May '13 5:24:05 PM by Klavice

The way I see it, Tsukuyomi is comparable to Quattro. They're both sadistic secondary villains who're among the morally worst in their relatively idealistic series. Neither actually does very much.

I don't remember what Tsukuyomi's kill count is, if any, but it's in either case less than the demon who stoned the people in Negi's home town. Quattro doesn't kill anyone.

The difference is probably that Setsuna doesn't appreciate Tsukuyomi's advances, while Quattro does have a good relationship with the doctor.

Otherwise, they're about equally heinous, all things considered.

I'm changing my vote in favor of cutting Higuchi.

Tsukoyomi and Quattro sound more like your average anime psycho, rather than actual monsters though.

Anyone want to cut Clu from the Dream Drop Distance YMMV page since I believe he was voted not to qualify in the movie? And should we cut Frollo too, for not being as heinous as he was in the movie?

edited 3rd May '13 6:10:54 PM by Klavice

Also throwing my vote to cut all Death Note villians.

With the (closed) Light debate, he still counts as a Well-Intentioned Extremist because the end goal reeks of Utopia Justifies the Means, he does have a few Even Evil Has Standards moments (his MO as Kira was noted to ignore criminals who had mitigating factors in their crimes or who were truly rependent and making amends compared to the other Kiras), the only person who said "normal people would only use the note once or twice to see how it worked and then be horrified" was Near, who is heavily implied to have used the Death Note to ensure Mikami wouldn't test it before coming to the warehouse and per Word of God is no angel himself (if people are interested in Word of God, he said that had Light never found the Death Note he would have followed in his father's footsteps and become a great detective), his amensia personality was just how he was originally, the scream he gives off when he touches the Death Note is his "oh my god I've become a monster" but gets supressed by his "time to make a utopia to be god of" side.

I'd say cut all Death Note examples as well. Higuchi was probably the worst character in the series, but he didn't do much onscreen.

Tsukoyomi was from the Anime and Manga page. If there examples like that on that page, we've got a lot of work to do...

On Light: while I'm unfamiliar with the series it sounds like he's actually on the Knight Templar side of the KT-WIE divide; his motives sound strikingly similar to the Law hardliners from Shin Megami Tensei. That said, if he really does make a point to spare anyone who's genuinely repented I agree with keeping him off the page.

The problem there is Light had other people on the 'get to them later' list, and even intended to get to lazy people. When Mikami brought this up, Light is only frustrated because

There's nothing he does that isn't spoiled by selfishness. Utopia Justifies the Means only works if one desires the utopia to make things better. Light wants it to create a world 'worthy' of him to be the God of. All of his motivations come down to "I am awesome."

I don't intend to argue it overmuch now, so let's move on

I just remembered a couple more Marvel/X-Men characters who might be worth discussing, from the Too Good to Last series X-Statix. Now X-Statix was a strange little book in that its stars in any other book would not be good people at all; rather than being superheroes, they're Glory Hounds who essentially "play" superheroes on TV. However, they are quite sympathetic and do have something of a moral compass, and twice have to deal with a Mole in Charge problem, which are the characters I'm about to submit: the Coach and Mr. Freeman. Freeman is the owner of the team while the Coach is their manager, but both are utter balls of slime who repeatedly nearly destroy the team. They both deliberately set up team members to die on multiple occasions, the Coach to increase ratings, Freeman to cover up his shady business dealings (and by "shady" I mean "he sold Saddam Hussein the gas he used in his genocide of the Kurds"). Also the Coach is a rapist, and by the end of his arc he tries to kill the entire team once they learn what he did to their friends.

I'm going to join those saying no Death Note examples. While I personally don't think that Light had any good traits, he's ambiguous enough that including him would set a bad precedent, and nobody else measures up.

To those asking about Higuchi: Higuchi was the Third Kira. An uninspiring corporate drone, he was given the Death Note during the period when Light was amnesiac. He then uses it to kill his corporate rivals. Now, unlike Light, he clearly has no good traits or positive intentions. The problems however, are many. He's a pawn of Light's for starters (even if Light doesn't remember that at the time), and he never kills anywhere near the number of people that Light, Misa, Takada, or Mikami killed. Heck, Sociopathic Hero Mello may have hurt/killed more people, and he's at least nominally, on the side of the angels. Additionally, there's the problem of how Higuchi does business. He gather several likeminded individuals from the Yotsuba Group. They sit around the table and decide who to kill. Then, afterwards, Higuchi kills the people they've agreed to murder. This way he's able to keep his identity somewhat camoflaged (everyone in the group knows that one of the others is Kira #3, but none of them know which one). However, it also means that all the members of this little council are every bit as complicit as Higuchi.

With all that in mind, he's got to go. He may be the biggest jerk in the show, but he's overshadowed by Light, and does not distinguish himself at his own tier.

I could use more opinions on those film examples I posted on this page, and on The Beast from Berserk (same page).

They sound like possibilities. Care to elaborate?

edited 3rd May '13 9:30:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

I'll say cut 'em all

There's not much more to say, as the series didn't last very long. The Coach's wrongdoings are revealed first; the first issue of the series ends with almost the entire team being killed in a single page while fighting some assassins, and it's later revealed that the Coach hired the assassins to get rid of all the 'ugly' mutants on the team to increase ratings. The Coach then sends his Co-Dragons to get rid of the current team members when they find this out (but a guest-starring Wolverine takes care of them) and tries to rape Edie, one of the team members; she ends up shooting him.

Freeman sticks around quite a bit longer, but it's eventually revealed that the Serial Killer that is the team's current assignment was actually hired by Freeman to bump off everyone who knew about his deal with Saddam, including an honorary member of the team who is likely the only completely-good character in the series. The team leader, Guy, then breaks Freeman's neck, and that's the end of him.

edited 3rd May '13 9:41:36 PM by HamburgerTime

They seem like possibilities.

I have an example that is way to long

• Murder In Coweta County: A 1983 made-for-TV movie that told the true story of John Wallace, a wealthy Meriwether County, Georgia land baron, and moonshine runner who, in the 1940s, virtually ruled the county with an iron fist and had the sheriff in his back pocket. He had excessively sadistic and cruel methods of doling out physical punishment toward people who wronged him; for instance, at the beginning of the film, the sheriff catches a black farmhand stealing from Wallace; Wallace directs the farmhand to place his hands and feet in the jambs of the door, then slams the door shut on him repeatedly. (The "altruistic" side of Wallace, which he presented to the community in general, was a mere cover for his true, sinister side. For instance, he regularly attended church, was a member of the choir and church council, and paid for new pews out of his pocket.) The key incident in the film, which happens in April 1948, comes in the first hour of the movie: a sharecropper named Wilson Turner, who ran shine for Wallace, made a little too much money and made his runs a little too often; Wallace finds out and — after beating him severely — orders him off of his land. In retaliation (and perhaps knowing that Wallace would bury him in small-claims court, since Wallace had several judges in his back pocket), Turner steals a prized cow from Wallace's pasture. Sure enough, Wallace finds out and has Turner arrested, but then later decides to drop the charge "on a lack of evidence." Turner is let out of jail, but his freedom is short-lived, as Wallace and three of his thugs are waiting for him at the gas station. Turner hightails it, with Wallace and his buddies in pursuit, and the chase extends into Coweta County, where Turner's truck runs out of gas at the Sunset Tourist Camp; Turner tries to flee but is immediately caught and savagely beaten, creating a disturbance that draws several witnesses. As the men are trying to place Turner in one of the cars, witnesses reportedly saw Wallace pistol-whip Turner atop the head with such force that the gun discharged, likely killing him instantly. It was not good enough for Wallace to merely dispose of Turner's body in a deep well on his property, especially upon learning that hard-nosed Coweta County Sheriff Lamar Potts was investigating the case and — knowing the fatal blow was administered in the adjacent county — he had jurisdiction for the entire series of crimes involving Turner's death. So, Wallace directs two African American farmhands to help extract the body from the well, build a pyre, douse the body and wood with kerosene, moonshine, and gasoline...AND SET EVERYTHING ON FIRE!!!! Wallace cackles evily as he dares Potts to arrest him now, believing that the lack of a body will cast doubt on where Turner was killed. Wallace does not count on bone fragments and brain tissue (the few bits of Turner's body that remained after it was otherwise completely cremated) remaining in both the river and well, and that — plus the testimony of the two farmhands, Wallace's goons refusing to testify in his defense (they were to claim that Turner was still alive when brought back to Meriwether County), Potts persistence in gathering other evidence...and Wallace's own eccentric statement during the trial — led to an eventual guilty verdict and sentencing to death. Even in the last half hour before his execution Nov. 2, 1950, Wallace remains defiant, declaring himself (to an unimpressed Potts) the leader of "The Kingdom" and that he was taught to do everything without conscience or fear of the consequences. His last statement, made in the electric chair moments before his execution, is: "Almighty God, only You know my true heart. Prepare to receive me into Your House." Griffith's portrayal of the ruthless, sadistic, cold-hearted Wallace was critically acclaimed and showed just how callous, mean, and evil this outwardly Christian man truly was.
  • Follow-ups: the three men that helped Wallace beat Turner to death pleaded guilty as accessories to murder and were sentenced to life in prison; they each would be released after serving seven years. The Meriwether County sheriff — also an accomplice to murder — pleaded not guilty, but died before being brought to trial; a guilty verdict surely would have meant a life sentence, and removal from office.

• Murder In Coweta County: A 1983 made-for-TV movie that told the true story of John Wallace, a wealthy Meriwether County, Georgia land baron, and moonshine runner who, in the 1940s, virtually ruled the county with an iron fist and had the sheriff in his back pocket. Wallace would brutally abuse his share croppers, such as the time he put a man's hands and feet in door jambs and slammed the door on them, all while appearing to be a kind charitable man. When Wilson Turner, who ran shine for Wallace, made a little too much money and made his runs a little too often; Wallace beats him severely and orders him off of his land. Knowing that Wallace had several Judges in his pocket, Turner steals a prized cow from Wallace's pasture. Wallace then has Turner arrested, released "on a lack of evidence", then ambushed at the gas station. Turner tries to flee but soon runs out of gas, and is beaten to death by Wallace and his thugs. When Wallace is finally arrested and sentenced to death, his last statement is: "Almighty God, only You know my true heart. Prepare to receive me into Your House."

Too real life? Nice condensing though.

BTW: Speaking of X-Statix: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/XForce

I think I have a candidate for web origonal: Alex Timmons from Dexter Early Cuts, an animated web series that acts as a prequel to Dexter, showing us his "early cuts" (first victims). Alex Timmons was a sniper who shot and killed 3 civilian children in the war. No reason is given for why he did this other than for fun. He always liked to shoot children. Even before he became a sniper, he started off hunting as a kid, and liked to shoot young fawns instead of grown deer. He gives a Slasher Smile after killing a child. We see him observing a playground, likely intending to kill the children. Thankfully, Dexter kills him. The web series is much sorter than the actual series and around 3 minutes long, so you can look it up and judge him yourself.

Any particular ones? I only saw things about Dexter, and several I couldn't watch in my country. From the description you gave he does seem to fit, though considering the nature of the show, I don't know if there are worse people.

edited 4th May '13 9:35:58 AM by AnotherDuck

@Ambar: Agree with cutting Godzilla from Giant Monsters all out Attack for failing the heinous standard and Ivan Korshunov from Air Force One for having redeeming qualities. I believe we talked about Henry already. The consensus was he qualified but he needed a rewrite. I think Largo Quagmire gave a rundown of his deeds. Agree with removing everything about Slater, and I'm not sure his aunt qualifies either unless she intended to turn him into a Serial Killer. Finally, agree with cutting the Beast from Berserk since it fails the heinous standard and has questionable moral agency.

Re Death Note: Agree that no one in the series qualifies.

@12415: If Clu has the same Well-Intentioned Extremist motives as the movie then yes, cut. If Frollo's entry is a Zero Context Example, cut him too.

@12427: On-the-fence. I don't know if they meet the general heinous standard of the Marvelverse.

@12432: While I agree that's a better write-up, I'm not sure the example counts since he only conducts one murder alongside some abuse.

By the way, Alderich Killian is listed on YMMV.Iron Man 3. Not saying he doesn't count (though that entry's pretty poor) but I know he was never discussed here before being added. Should we just cut him and wait a week or two before discussing him? I think Footsteps proposed a waiting policy like that a while ago. This way more people can actually see the movie, since it only came out a week ago internationally and came out just yesterday in the U.S.

edited 4th May '13 10:49:43 AM by OccasionalExister

^ I have no problems with waiting on considering CMs for IM3 a few weeks. I'm not all that certain he qualifies, anyway, but I haven't gone through the CM checklist to see about qualifications.

Also, cutting the CM entries in Schlock Mercenary, as no one has objected.