Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Lighty, I agree to cut those Sword of Trash Truth examples. They sound like they'd be "99% CM" if there was such a trope, but that last 1% is important.

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And on another note, these entries from YMMV.Schlock Mercenary seem like cut fodder to me, but I'm going to run them by this thread to make sure the forms of Kanly cutting have been observed:

• Complete Monster: Kathryn calls [spoiler:Max Haluska] one. Given that this is coming from a Femme Fatale who stands out even among a cast full of sociopaths, it says something.
  • And considering his latest ploy is to [spoiler:set off an AI's annie plant] that may very well [spoiler:kill all of Haven hive, just because he was arrested for several crimes he admitted to committing, and with no actual gain intended...] Well, there's not really much doubt anymore.
  • General Xinchub is an interesting example. He's done things that would push just about anyone over the line (Betraying a combined fleet consisting of millions of people for his own gain, killing indiscriminately, seemingly betraying all of humanity, authorizing torture, etcetera.), but might be saved by it by the fact that he is [spoiler:actually trying to push a project that would grant humankind immortality, and generally make the galaxy better.] This would still be well beyond the scope of Well-Intentioned Extremist, but [spoiler:Petey seems to be dragging him back to the right side of this line.]

(spoiler tags altered so they don't trigger wiki code)

Setting aside the formatting trainwreck, Kathryn's accusation is You Monster!, not the "Complete Monster" used in the entry, which in and of itself isn't a CM criteria.

Max in general is slime, and working for a slimy organization (UNS Intelligence), but he doesn't do things For the Evulz. At most, he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist (and I wouldn't really argue in favor of the "well intentioned" part too strongly, myself), carrying out his assigned job.

Xinchub actually gets a little closer to CM status than Max, but not by much. He is a Fat Bastard extraordinaire, but he is shown to be doing what he does for the sake of humanity, as he sees fit.

edited 28th Apr '13 4:27:01 PM by Nohbody

Honestly, the one who one could make an argument for is Darken Rahl. Jagangbang as I affectionately refer to him...has the deeds, but some tiny little features that aren't ridiculously evil. Rahl I'm sketchier on since we did let in The Founder, but...

Good point about Founder...Did Founder love his father?

Anyway, saw this for the X Men: Victor "Sabretooth" Creed has reveled in his savagery ever since he was a boy, when he killed and ate his parents though it's later revealed that he not only spared his mother, but continued to visit and financially support her because she showed him kindness. That bit about Sabertooth and his mother...enough to DQ him?

edited 26th Apr '13 4:31:33 PM by ACW

We've dealt with this before. Hamburger time said the Founder didn't seem to love his father, just admired him for being a prick.

Sabretooth, in the vast majority of his history for over twenty years, killed and ate his parents. Jason Aaron going "Lolno" in the last couple years does not really overwrite that. Yet.

Ah. So more of a Depending on the Author where the author is weird thing?

More that Sabretooth's whole nice guy thing has always been an act or has never, ever lasted. So one outlier?

I found an example from a classic film that I think we can have a very quick vote on, and it's the wicked witch of the west from the wizard of oz. Yeah, she's listed on the film's ymmv page. I assume most of you have seen it so let's just cast our votes, I vote no, standard villain.

edited 26th Apr '13 5:18:11 PM by bobg

So has anyone dealt with the laughably bad Xenosaga examples I brought up yet?

Witch of the West...no. Standard villain.

Xenosaga...cut all save Yuriev

Cut the Witch. Also...not terrible: http://www.cracked.com/article_18417_9-famous-movie-villains-who-were-right-all-along_p2.html

edited 26th Apr '13 5:42:23 PM by ACW

Made the changes to the Monster.Literature page I said I would @12159. I also swapped Ka Anor's old entry with his rewrite @12022.

@12181: Agree with cutting Mitchell Thurman.

@12200: Agree with eliminating those The Sword Of Truth examples for those slight redeeming qualities.

@12201: Agree with cutting both of those for well-intentioned extremism.

@12207: I believe we talked about and disqualified the Wicked Witch before.

edited 26th Apr '13 6:13:57 PM by OccasionalExister

Yeah, I wouldn't have even brought up the Founder if he didn't know his dad was a bad guy. As it stands, though, he did know and enjoyed every bit of it.

The thing with Rahl is he definitely knew his dad was bad, but he seems to have cared about him and genuinely honors his memory.

Because they're the bad guys, they're ridiculous characters. Like "Daddy taught me women are nothing more than toys for my amusement and how to torture and maim people!"

To be fair, I could see the movie's Wicked Witch as a contender when compared to the book's Wicked Witch, where she and her crimes were underdeveloped and just kind of there. Still doesn't quite make the cut, though. And after Wicked, I doubt anyone sees any version of her as a Complete Monster.

From what I've heard about Sword of Truth, it's basically extreme far-right propaganda disguised as fantasy, and thus even the heroes seem like total warmongering right-wing nutjobs from a sane perspective. Are the villains really all that much worse than they are? I know we had that one Slobodan-apologist movie that we disqualified everyone because the "hero" actually had the most onscreen crimes...

I'm going to bring up Sora Takeuchi and his dragon Nike again so people can probably vote.

Sora Takeuchi, the Leader of the AT group Genesis and primary antagonist of Air Gear and one of the gifted Gravity Children is a piece of work. He first manipulates Rika's desire to protect Ikki just so he can have Ikki to use as a pawn to allow him to become the Wind King again. Sora's brother Nike steals the Wind Regalia Bagram allowing Sora to regain his status as the Wind King. When he becomes the Wind King, he makes a promise to the public saying he'll fix the worlds problems by using AT technology to aid the populace. Naturally, he's lying and he really only thinks the Gravity Children like himself deserve such technology. His hypocrisy is that he believes in equality provided he is the ruler of all humanity. Killing anyone and everyone who get in his way, only sparing a girl because she lent him a hankerchief, Sora's iron grip on the world tightens, gaining control over the military and assasinating Yoshitsune and he kidnaps Rika with a threat of killing her if his demands were not met. His callous disregard for humanity and desire to use people as tools make him a ruthlessly deplorable man. He claims he'll solve the world's problems, but really he's only saying this because he finds humanity amusing, making him less of a Well Intentioned Extremist and more of a Knight Templar. In fact, he's perfectly okay with the downfall of humanity stating that it's their own fault for being "worthless". He also wants to rule the world using AT Technology so that he can benefit from it and he's perfectly okay with killing fellow Gravity Children if they get in his way. He does, however, spare a child who gave him a hankerchief. Whether it was due to actual gratitude or because he didn't feel like it is up in the air.

Nike is the Dragon of Sora and carries out most of Sora's dirty work. I'd say cut for this one, since he doesn't really do anything and he's mentally unstable.

So far, for Sora, there's one vote that's on the fence but leaning towards keep along with my vote to keep. Nike has two votes to cut.

And here's one for The Mask Of Zorro.

"Captain Love. Keeps the dismembered bodyparts of Alejandro's brother pickled in alcohol, which he drinks "based on an Incan custom". And when he learns Zorro has the means to expose Don Rafael's plan (buying California with stolen gold), he calmly suggests destroying the mine to hide evidence of the theft...with the slaves who did the mining still inside, "to destroy all the evidence"."

Sounds like a jackass, but not heinous enough I don't think.

Wait. Keeping the severed remains of a human being as a sort of trophy to 'gain their power' before trapping people he enslaved in a gold mine to blow it up to leave no evidence of the illegal operation isn't heinous enough?

I cut the witch.

and WHAT!? That's just disturbing. Well, it sounds like a bitter qualifier than some other examples i have heard (like Gaston).

Oh, Hamburger Time? For Sword of Truth? Yes, the villains are that much worse than the heroes and the heroes are really fracking bad. Like, a villain needs to be crazy over the top to get past the heinous standard the good guys set when the heroine, I swear to Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal, threatens to send her army to sack her homeland, and throw her sister into a pit in prison with rapists due to her sister was having second thoughts about the endless war thing. She then condones her brother who was just the messenger in this affair being murdered.

This is not idle boasting, she actually fully intends to do this. She also leads a raid on civilian targets in the bad guys' camps under the premise that every comfort woman they kill deprives the enemy of pleasure. Can anyone see why I hate this series?

edited 26th Apr '13 11:11:34 PM by Lightysnake

Wow. That woman sounds like she'd be a CM in any other story. That stuff'd make Sonia Reed's jaw drop. How much worse are the baddies?

Insanely. Darken Rahl is the psychotic dictator who sends his armies to pillage, rap, burn, etc, engages in rape, torture, murder, etc. as casual hobbies. He also literally, I reiterate bans fire. This is due to a Freudian Excuse where the fireball that killed his dad burned his nether regions hideously. ...he also murders children and gives their souls to the devil. He also keeps a legion of leather bound women who are trained Torture Technician types who he routinely rapes (he takes particular joy in such when he selects one of the lesbian couple for his entertainment), and if a woman shows any revulsion or laughs when she sees his scars, he tortures her to death.

When the hero kills his dad and takes over the country, the army and said women become happy, well adjusted warriors for justice like flipping a light switch.

Jagang? Hahahahahaaaaaaaa.... ok, Jagang is introduced having women raped (they're evil, though, so they clearly deserve it!....dear god, that was sarcasm, people, let me be VERY clear). He kills a woman as a warning...his armies also Rape, Pillage, and Burn a lot, with women enslaved as camp followers. Jagang also has his favorite sports team executed if they ever lose a match and does lots of other horribly nasty stuff besides.

Keep in mind we are meant to sympathize and love everything our heroes do. Also, I'm not even getting into minor villains like Darken's other psycho kids or two characters who are clearly stand ins for the Clintons named Bertrand and Hildemara Chamboor who are Sleazy Politician Smug Snake jerkasses who end up catching an STD and dying

I'm gonna say cut all the Sword of Truth examples. The villains may be worse than the heroes, but not by enough to stand out. Throw in the various freudian excuses, redeeming qualities, etc, and they can't hack it.

And yeah, so-called "Objectivist" propaganda tends to be even worse than the regular variety. Much like their idol, Ayn Rand, these people can't write, and they can't do subtle to save their lives.

Hey, Rand wasn't a bad writer.

We're going to disagree enormously on that front. Rand is one of the worst authors I've ever read

Anyway, I believe the topic here is complete monsters. Rand's writing skill (or lack thereof) is a bit off-topic, so unless anyone wants to discuss complete monster candidates from any of her books, I really don't think we should be talking about her.