During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Lost in Space
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
As someone with personal knowledge here, I'm thinking that we'll have to keep it to the most prominent characters since WoW sets the bar for heinousness so very, very high. Frankly, I'd be inclined to drop the demon lords entirely, since the narrative seems to treat them as Made of Evil (despite that not being literally true) and focus its greatest scorn for the mortals who abet them, like Gul'dan and Azshara.
One can wave aside Kil'jaeden and Archimonde and the like because "demons be demons, yo", but regardless, they would have no agency in Azeroth at all without mortals inviting them through the door.
edited 22nd Aug '16 8:15:50 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Can't comment on the last two, but, as far as I know, the 2-week rule still applies for expansions.
Lost in Space
That's a good point. Since it officially launches next week, we should observe the waiting period to give people a chance to play the expansion without getting spoiled, although it's kind of weird for MMOs since they add content over time instead of all at once. We aren't going to see the conclusion of the Legion story line play out for at least a year.
edited 22nd Aug '16 8:25:01 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I suppose we should follow the two-weeks rule for the expansion, and deal with subsequent content (ie patches) the same way we deal with new episodes or chapter.
Gul'dan, Xavius and Azshara will probably need to be expanded but we should wait for the Legion (or their own) storyline to end before.
I don't know about Archimonde. KJ isn't just an Omnicidal Maniac among others; he was voted up because of his role in the Draenei genocide, where he did much more than we was expected to just for a grudge that other demons find incomprehensible, and because he's now the acting leader of the Legion. By comparison, Arch never went the extra mile to do anything that wasn't expected of the Legion's field commander.
edited 22nd Aug '16 8:43:28 AM by Nithael
Especially because the backstory now shows the Eredar were not Made of Evil demons. Kil'Jaeden made a very conscious choice to turn to evil.
Also, it says something Gul'dan's being given more insanely evil deeds just in the trailers
I really wish I was better with image software because I really want the Warcraft page image to be of Alt Gul'dan slowly shoving the demonic fire into Varian's chest as he screams and finally explodes.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I'm kinda iffy about Archimonde. All he does is generic evil stuff. In WC 3 he destroys a city by drawing it on the ground, and tries to corrupt the world tree. And he dosen't do much in Wo D. Kil'Jaeden and some of the Burning Legion's mortal followers overshadows him in this regard.
Unless there is new evidence qualifying him, I doubt he would make the cut.
Lost in Space
Yeah, I'm fine if our CM article keeps Gul'dan, Azshara, Xavius, Kil'Jaeden, and maybe Deathwing. (Is he on there? I forget.)
edited 22nd Aug '16 9:18:02 AM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
He is. i think you and I debated that one like four years ago.
I think that really covers the big players overall.
Alo, because this is bothering me...ACW, if I say I have someone I'll propose later, please don't just go "Oh, you mean this one, how bout that name" here. Kind of feels like stepping on toes and we've discussed this "needing to comment on absolutely everything and what about this" type of behavior.
edited 22nd Aug '16 10:06:39 AM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I assume you're referring to my post about Cain? My bad...I HAVE been trying to work on what we've talked about.
So new Wo W expansion, this should be interesting, that game will never die
edited 22nd Aug '16 10:52:09 AM by Mediawatcher
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Mr. Smith.
The only part of Nick of Time I've seen is Smith's story about killing his former friend, but I should note (I'd forgotten before rewatching the clip) that he claims he still misses the guy. But his tone of voice and context of the threat to Gene's daughter keep me from thinking it's particularly genuine.
...You know what, here's the scene, because who needs an excuse for a great Walken moment?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Holy crap, how did I not know until just now that we could embed You Tube videos?
Also, Yami, I checked out Area 7 from the library (my own copy is in my parents' house...somewhere ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
), and I hope to effortpost Caesar this weekend the latest; I get the feeling though, that unless I'm missing something, he's an easy keep. I WANNA count Lucifer Leary too, but he suffers from Offscreen Villainy; I MAY also go back and see if Gunther Botha is worth effortposting.
edited 22nd Aug '16 11:59:41 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
He says he misses the guy's humor not the guy himself. He's just being Faux Affably Evil
Hey guys, might need some help with this one. I've been looking for a page image for the Warcraft page for a while but it's been surprisingly difficult to find one. The most recent cinematic came out and there is a moment near the end featuring Alt! Gul'dan that would be perfect if I could find a still image or two from the video to use as the picture. I'm going to embed the video and I want you guys to make some suggestions from the scene. The exact moment I'm talking about goes from 3:12 to 3:49.
I have a Goosebumps nominee:
Who are they?
El Sydney from the tv version of Bad hair day.
What do they do?
El Sydney is an evil magician who has been turned into a rabbit. He tricks the boy Tim into turning him back to normal, lying that he was turned into a rabbit by Amazo to be part of the act. In actuality, he was turned into a rabbitto stop him from using his magic to take over the world. After Tim turns El Sydney back to normal, he turns Amazo into a rabbit. Tim tries to flee, but El Sydney claims that he can make Tim a star. Tim considers this and agrees. El Sydney than turns Tim into a rabbit as well, and goes onstage to perform the "trick" of cutting Tim and Amazo,s heads off in a guillotine, despite the fact that Tim is a child, helped get him back to normal, and gave him no reason to do this. The episode ends on a cliffhanger.
Any redeeming qualities or mitigating factors?
No. El Sydney displays no redeeming qualities. He also had no reason to kill Tim. Tim was no threat to him. Tim was just a mere child, while El Sydney had powerful magic. No one would have believed Tim if he told them about an evil magician with real magic. Tim was even willing to work as El Sydney,s assistant. While Amazo did turn him into a rabbit, that was because he was an evil magician who wanted to take over the world, so that is not a Freudian Excuse.
Heniousness?
Normally I would say that killing a child and one other person isn't enough, but killing a child who had done nothing but help you and was willing to keep helping you... for no reason at all... that seems like one heck of a Moral Event Horizon crossing. I know we let in Mcleach, and while he was much more sadistic about it, at least he had the excuse that Cody would have told the authorities. In El Sydney,s case, the child had done nothing but help him, and he was going to kill him for fun.
Goosebumps is an anthology series, so there is no need to compare him to the other villains.
jjj
I'm going to say "no" to Sydney. Doesn't strike me as truly heinous enough.
And yeah, Mr. Smith reminiscing on his friend isn't redeeming, especially given how he refers to his friend and the context in which he brings it up. It's an excellent Walken moment though.
Wild Child
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Sydney. That's pretty standard Goosebumps villainy.
FWIW, I personally would vote no on Archimonde - he doesn't really do enough.
Anyways, should there be no further contention, here's Mr. Smith's writeup:
Nick of Time: Mr. Smith is a psychotic assassin with a Hair-Trigger Temper hiding under a paper-thin veneer of affability. A member of the conspiracy to assassinate Governor Eleanor Grant, Smith and his cohort Ms. Jones snatch accountant Gene Winston from off the street and browbeat him into carrying out the assassination at the threat of his young daughter Lynn's life — with full plans to likely kill both after they have worn out their use. Smith relentlessly hounds and beats Gene and threatens to brutally murder Lynn for the slightest deviation from the plot, and at one point reminisces over murdering a friend of his for being a "fuck-up." Smith coldly shoots Eleanor's assistant dead after she inadvertently learns too much, and once the plot to kill Eleanor goes awry for the final time, Smith simply indiscriminately fires into a populated crowd to take her out and shortly thereafter tries to murder Lynn himself. Deprived of any real emotion except murderous anger, Smith's tendency to harm anything that so much as displeased him marked him as the absolute worst of those involved in the conspiracy.
edited 22nd Aug '16 5:50:14 PM by Scraggle
to Arianna Ortega, Silver Odysseus (cool name for an awful person), and Mr. Smith (guys like him give Smiths a bad name).
Cut Jack Noir.
to El Sydney. Even by Goosebumps' PG standards of horror, he's not quite heinous enough.
As far as Joffrey being a case of Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas goes (ACW brought it up a few pages back), I'll say that it doesn't affect him. He's a Mama's Boy, sure, but that never stops him from being a monster. Ned Stark's execution makes it clear that if he wants to ignore Cersei's wishes, he will. As far as I can tell, his fondness for her goes as far as her indulging his sociopathic whims.
It is better to write for yourself and have no public than to write for the public and have no self.
to El Sydney.
While that is pretty evil, its not enough. Especially when comparing the heinous standard, the series does already have a complete monster and he's a complete sadist who enjoys torturing and murdering children.
edited 22nd Aug '16 3:15:12 PM by MGD107
Let's also remember the show had a piano teacher who routinely murdered children to steal their hands and a group of monsters who ran a park dedicated to murdering humans-adults and children alike.
Sydney doesn't breach the heinous standard here.
Here are a few questions about the Wo W expansion about to be released
First, World of Warcraft: Legion is coming out in a week and I want to know how we want to handle the two week rule for an expansion to an MMO.
Second, Xavius, Alt! Gul'dan, and maybe Azshara and Kil'jaeden will need to have their entries expanded, so will that follow the same rule or be less restricted?
Third, how do we want to handle the heinous standard for the Burning Legion characters considering every single one is an Omnicidal Maniac demon. Should they all be disqualified in comparison to Kil'jaeden? I ask this last one because I'm seriously considering proposing Kil'jaeden's Co Dragon Archimonde.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.