Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Let's keep going until the problem is solved.

As for locks... none of the pages that I know well enough to propose a lock for are ready for it.

Question - should I start moving one-example subpages, like Yakitate Japan, back onto the appropriate medium CM page? It'd be nice to do clean up some of those (particularly as a few of them just look large due to Natter).

Just a question: real life examples of Complete Monsters are still forbidden, right? Because it's not explicitly stated on the page anymore, and I wonder if I still have to remove examples and pot holes of it (like in Hundred Years War).

It is absolutely forbidden. If it doesn't say that, it should.

The two Real Life sections are in the Permanent Red Link Club. According to the edit history, there was an No Real Life Examples Please disclaimer but Camacan moved it to comment markup here.

edited 14th Feb '12 9:20:00 AM by SeptimusHeap

Okay, that's what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation.

That would be great. I got a unanimous ruling in the TRS that any subpage containing less than 3 valid entries should be merged with the main article.

I'll be away from computers until Friday, but I'll start shuffling those on the weekend.

Also, considering that the page for Complete Monster is locked, isn't it counter-intuitive to put the No Real Life Examples note in comment markup, since only mods can actually look at said markup? The note isn't just there for that page; it's to flag it such that the trope cannot be used for a Real Life figure on any page.

The question is whether having the RL sections being in the Permanent Red Link Club is sufficient or if we want to put that one back on the Complete Monster page. Anyway, you ask for edits on Complete Monster here

If we're still trying to cut down anime examples, then I don't think V.V. from Code Geass counts. I stopped watching before R2, so this info is from the wiki and character pages, but his motives are that of a Well-Intentioned Extremist who wants to create a "world without lies" via an Assimilation Plot. The other two baddies involved with this plan aren't listed as C Ms despite having similar motives, and most of his listed villainous actions aren't that bad. The only really bad thing that he's show to have done is killing Marianne out of jealousy but even then she is also a villain and gets better either way. Any opinions from someone who watched the entire show?

Also, the Speed Grapher page should probably just be deleted period. Like another troper said, it just says that "most minor villains" qualify, but then it never lists any specific individuals who do qualify, or any specific actions they've done. And the one example that is listed Choji Suitengu is called a Woobie Destroyerof Worlds and Well-Intentioned Extremist "subversion" of the trope. Honestly, all subversions should just be eliminated from the pages. We could spend all day listing people who don't qualify as a Complete Monster. Deconstructions, like Johan, are understandable but that's only because their entire purpose is to examine/study this trope. Anyway, unless somebody has seen Speed Grapher and has actual candidates to be listed, I think it should just be cut.

edited 19th Feb '12 7:27:25 PM by OccasionalExister

If I see an example that doesn't actually meet the requirements of the trope on a subpage that has been locked due to being "all cleaned up," do I bring it up here, or on the "Edit request for a locked page" thread?

Here to get agreement, and then to the Edit Requests thread if that agreement is gained.

k. On Fable there are two examples whose validity I question:

1. Reaver, who is usually played for laughs, violating criteria two.

2. Lord Lucien, who is something of a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds who does at one point admit that what he's doing is horrible. I think that this violates criteria three but I'm not certain.

1. Reaver is played for laughs out of universe, but in universe nobody actually likes him. And as for being played for laughs, the more you look into his history, the less funny it all becomes.

2. For Lucien, he admits what he's doing is wrong, but that doesn't stop him from doing it at all. Not to mention his last major act in the game is killing your family(ies) personally just to make sure that he got the job done this time.[[/spoiler Despite his "confession" he doesn't stop doing it. In fact over the years he only gets worse and worse, that's what makes him a CM. Incidently I don't remember when he said what he was doing was wrong, so obviously I can't recall the context. I just remembering him being resposible for the mind rape, suffering and death of thousands.

edited 22nd Feb '12 8:34:55 PM by Shaoken

"The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story."

I'd say that that disqualifies Reaver. Not to mention that in one of his diary entries he implies that his hedonistic personality is his way of coping with the horrible things he's done.

Lucien I'm less sure about, but when he shoots you at the beginning of the game, he does apologize.

Again, it's out of universe Reaver makes us laugh. In universe his actions are played seriously at all times. It's like how the Joker isn't disqualified just because he's hysterical. He's still treated as a monster in-universe, same as Reaver. Also, for the regret in Reaver's diary entry, it's the same as Lucien. He felt regret after the death of everyone in Oakvale, but, instead of doing anything with that regret to atone for his actions, he just became an even bigger monster instead. It doesn't help that his diary ends with That Manis Dead, when reflecting on the person he once was. This is consistent with his attitude in the present where he's shown no regret for his actions.

This is likely a dumb question, but to put this into perspective, does this clean-up encourage autonomous action? If we believe an entry is 100% invalid, are we required to nominate it for removal on this thread, or can we outright purge it and then document any changes (and reasoning) on this topic in case someone wants to debate that removal?

My personal opinion would be that autonomous action is acceptable, if you put in a good edit reason and refer to a more in-depth discussion that you place in the Discussion tab.

Yeah, I removed a fuck-ton of entries from the video game page before it got locked (because someone just threw one of the entires back on there without bothering with the discussion page beyond a "you're wrong" message). As a rule I always brought it up with the discussion page though, making a list of reasons why each one was cut. If you do something like that include a link to here and vice versa just so we're all on the same page.

That said, avoid blanking entire pages unless you have this thread to back you up, or else the mods will probably suspend you. But that said, I had 100% for deleting subpages that contained two or less examples, so you can use that as justification so long as you transfer the examples across.

I've only moved one one-example page back onto the medium page and called for a cut so far, but that was handled with simply an appropriate edit reason (it helped that the example wasn't be altered beyond where on the wiki it stood) - I don't think you need to go to the discussion page to simply move entries to appropriate spots.

There's a character from Billy The Cat that I think might count as an example. I'm not sure how his name is spelled (Grunge, perhaps?) but he's a ship captain, from the episode "The Jolly Mouser," who captures some cats to be used for rat hunting, other cats to be sold. Billy himself is captured by being drugged unconscious, and wouldn't appear to be much of a match for the rats he's up against given their numbers. Grunge arguably crosses the Moral Event Horizon when, upon hearing the coast guard requesting to board, tells his crew to "keep the cats out of sight, and if they cause any trouble, throw them overboard!" (About 16 minutes in.)

Also, part of the reason I mention this example is that I think it might make a good page image for the western animation section.

edited 29th Feb '12 1:40:31 PM by HiddenFacedMatt

I just saw the episode. Sorry but I really don't think he qualifies. Grunge is only a petty criminal and a buffoonish Jerkass, with the episode treating him as more of a joke than a threat. Also, I don't think the picture is dark enough to accentuate the Complete Monster trope properly. Billy doesn't even look scared in it, he just looks kind of bored.

edited 29th Feb '12 5:37:55 PM by OccasionalExister

Fair enough, then. I made several posts in the Disney subsection thread talking about how we don't want to diminish the trope, I'd hate to be guilty of doing the same thing myself. XD

Would it qualify for Moral Event Horizon, though?

The Blaz Blue section is... a wall of text that are really unhealthy to read and hard, and most of them are in nature of 'easily-hyped' Blaz Blue fans, which could use some rearranging and cutting to make it easier to read. What do you think?

I haven't checked, but as a rule the majority of an example should be the characters deeds without fluff or padding.

I'll take a crack at rewriting those two (and since it's only two, we can put them on the main page and cut that one) later today. I do believe that both qualify for the title, but that could be much cleaner (Relius' actions towards Lotte/Arakune are more Kick the Dog items, so I'm just going to cut that part completely).