During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
how come some incarnations of the devil and demons count as monster? I mean they are initially inherently evil. Why is the devil in American horror story and saints row considered a monster? He a jackass undeniably, but he's the devil doesn't technically make them made of evil?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Satan is an ambiguous character. If we go by the Fallen Angel interpretation, he chose evil. He can also be interpreted as Made of Evil. As a general rule, demons are assumed to have moral agency until demonstrated otherwise.
I always find it impressive when a human manages to be far crueler than a demon, I mean wow that is quite an accomplishment. also why isn't father from full metal alchemist on complete monster or Kaguya from naruto considered such, they seem despicable enough.
edited 15th Feb '16 2:55:27 PM by Mediawatcher
Actually if one looks at Christian and Islamic mythology, it clearly states that Satan chose to be evil, that he was angel who became "fallen" due to his desire for power and his pride, so going by that logic, demons do have the ability to have moral agency.
As for your other example, yes, someone who kills people because they see them as demons is criminally insane and thus does not count. Psychopaths are not criminally insane, so they can count.
edited 15th Feb '16 3:06:26 PM by Overlord
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Don't know about Kaguya, but I think Father was determined to have Blue-and-Orange Morality. Now, Dietlinde Eckhart, on the other hand, seems like she could possibly count.
Wild Child
- Which is why I don't understand why demons are thought to be Made of Evil since Satan apparently chose to go down that route.
- I'll wait for more responses on Vandal's image. Meanwhile, since Full Metal Alchemist got brought up, I wonder about an image for that page.
I'm pretty sure Kaguya had a tragic death. You know how the author of Naruto has a penchant for giving just about every villain a sad backstory, tragic death, or Heel–Face Turn even if the character had been behind everything.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I say keep Manta for DC, put Vandal with the other images.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Kaguya never died, she's immortal although she was sealed back into the Ten Tails. Kaguya doesn't count because she's a GDV. She has very little personality outside of just being a power hungry tyrant who thinks all chakra should belong to her. She was also hurt by her sons "betrayal" and shed a few tears when she was thinking about them. Lastly, it's implied by the Sage that the fruit from the God Tree corrupted her so it's likely that she could lack moral agency.
Wild Child
I wanted to show Black Manta on the main image, for what it's worth.
Caesar
I, personally, always thought Father should count, but that's just me.
I'm for keeping the Manta pic, BTW.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Alright, the finale of Gravity Falls has ended.
I'll be composing Bill's effortpost and I'll post it one week from now (that's the 22nd, I believe); if the two-week rule has been set for a TV series as big as Gravity Falls, it'll be two weeks from now (the 29th). Until then, please, nobody post any spoilers.
Father has Blue-and-Orange Morality, and I think they were going for an Alas, Poor Villain scenario with his defeat.
I have no clue why demons are thought to be Made of Evil, but it's a common interpretation. Presumably it has something to do with "God's Plan."
I think the idea of demons being made of evil stems from different interpretations of them; some beliefs say they are fallen angels, some beliefs portray them as manifestations of sin and evil, etc.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
A total has-been.
I'll be anticipating what get said about Bill next Monday. I will say now that I might kind of, sort of want to take back the things I've said in the past in regards to his qualifications...
I don't watch Gravity Falls but I have to say, appearance-wise Bill's one of the goofier-looking characters I've seen come up in this thread. Though this has no bearing on whether he counts of course.
He's a Disney villain. Most Disney villains look ridiculous. Bill Cipher in terms of goofiness reminds me of Lotso who also looked pretty silly but we still voted a keep. I personally think a villain's appearance should never be a deciding factor. A villain that looks like an adorable puppy could still have as much of a chance as a villain that looks like the spawn of Satan.
edited 15th Feb '16 6:43:07 PM by Klavice
Bill's appearance is actually a shout out to the 'all seeing eye' on the American Dollar. Originally he was supposed to be colored green but that was ruled 'too wierd'.
Messenger from another dimension.
I am just watching Battle Royale film and I have a question; how come Kitano doesn't qualify; he seems to me worse than Kazumo. I didn't finish the movie yet but I wanna know how come Kitano doesn't qualify in the movie; I couldn't find discussion on him in google.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Maybe finish the movie?
Messenger from another dimension.
Okay. Just saying that he is getting worse and worse for now. But I will finish.
edited 15th Feb '16 7:28:13 PM by emperors
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Regardless of what one thinks of him in the film, I remember the sequel revealing that he has a daughter. There's also a phone call he has in the first film with someone (I forgot who) but as far as he can tell, there is someone he seems to care about.
Messenger from another dimension.
Finished the movie and yeah, he does have redeeming qualities. Shame, he could be a solid candidate by his actions.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
@ Demons: I think that what a lot of religions think that they're Made of Evil, is that they become so after the fall. So if they were judged, it would have to be before they fell. Or something.
@ Sociopaths: What I meant was that it's not their fault they can't feel empathy, since it's something they were born with. Part of what makes a sociopathic villain terrible is due to something they can't control. How evil would, say, Freeza be if he was born with the ability to care instead of cursed with callousness?
What about teppei hojo from higurashi, how does he push it?
Repeating what I said earlier on this matter: the characters who did "worse stuff" than Teppei were often under the influence of Hinamizawa Syndrome. Teppei committed all his low-scale, under resourced atrocities simply because he was an asshole. Meaning he's guilty of child abuse, child sexual assault, homicide (Rina in some timelines), attempted homicide, loan shark activities and embezzlement, theft through badger games, and being an all-around violent crook purely because of his own choices without any mental illness for an excuse.