During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If it was raised in a large enough pen and had a sibling at the start, as well as actual human interaction, Owen implied that it would have been far better off due to how animals can imprint on humans. But to make things a bit more tragic for the I. Rex? The only positive association it ever had...was with a crane that brought in its food.
Lost in Space
Baby ducks can imprint on humans; that doesn't mean they can exercise moral judgment.
Edit: In fact, being raised in a cruel and impersonal environment when it could have been treated with kindness is one heck of a Freudian Excuse, especially if you buy the idea that it's as intelligent as a human.
edited 30th Jun '15 4:46:01 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ys, there's a myriad of reasons she doesn't count.
I don't even know why there would be a non human CM in the Jurassic or Jaws series'. I think animals are sapient (particularly if they are like Pokemon, hence why Ho-oh and Deoxys from the fanworks count) but in this case, this critter is just a predator and there's no reason for her to qualify. The same thing with Jaws, Godzilla, etc.
That's 7 keep votes for Gala. Is that enough for a writeup? And no he's far different from the fal'Cie essentially going rogue from them so he could destroy existence himself. I believe he even planned on killing Etro herself which the fal'Cie up until him were unable to do.
edited 30th Jun '15 5:20:13 PM by Klavice
....bad example. Godzilla is very sapient. It's long established in the Godzilla franchise Kaiju are just as self aware and capable of moral judgment as other beings. They just have a different way of looking at the world. Godzilla is self aware enough to team up with opponents against, say, King Ghidorah or Megalon and actively have his ally armlock the latter so Godzilla can count down from three and dropkick him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
7 is enough, depending on how many no votes there are.
And yeah, as Lighty said, Godzilla's not a good example, as we have Ghidorah and others.
Looks like there's no ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
votes so I might do a writeup tonight.
What about Doffy? Where is he standing now on the votes?
He's ahead, but seriously wait a week or two to see what happens to him.
So, I've caught up on Dragons, and Dagur is as much of a nutcase as ever. He's now got a few more crimes under his belt (attempted murder of those he's trading with, betrayal of the person who breaks him out, more attempted dragon murder) the most notable of which is a village massacre. Even more joyful is that he also scores the family of one of the series' secondary characters, Heather. As for a potential mitigating quality that comes with a spoilery relationship Dagur's revealed to have with Heather, Dagur really doesn't seem relieved or overjoyed about it, taking it as more of a We Can Rule Together opportunity. He's evidently not regretting murdering Heather's family, so Dagur's safe for another season. I'll be rewriting Dagur's crimes to condense it a little and add this new information; he's still an active threat, but season 4 isn't for a while.
edited 1st Jul '15 12:34:06 AM by Scraggle
It's 10:30 am on July 1, 2015 in the UK right now. Shall we lift the embargo on candidates from Batman: Arkham Knight?
BTW, ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Reiss and Doffy. to I-Rex for the reasons previously mentioned and a to Shroob for loving her sister.
Nah, we wait another week. It's a popular title, we should give everyone who wants to play it a reasonable amount of time to finish it.
So, Chew just finished issue 50 and the Vampire/The Collector is dealt with definitively. I can expand and give him a definite writeup as he is a very, very easy keep still.
Caesar
@Scraggle: I agree with changing Dagur's entry, but should his massacre of Heather's village even be mentioned since it was Offscreen Villainy?
edited 1st Jul '15 7:06:35 AM by Ravok
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh right, him. Not against him, but purely curious: this line, how much do we see?
as someone who deeply desires to be the ultimate being, the Collector has hunted down, murdered and cannibalized many people, relishing sadistic mind games he plays with them as well.
And speaking of evil vampires, should the Baltimore entries stay under Comics or be moved to Literature? CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to I-Rex, though I was considering her. In terms of her tier of intelligence, she probably comes as close as you can, but I don't feel she's quite smart enough to count. Plus, she was genetically and environmentally conditioned to be an arsehole.
And I was all ready to talk about Knight as well. Eh, another week sounds fair. It certainly brings much to our discussion.
Kep Baltimore in comics. Haigus and Baltimore's final battle is extremely different between book and comics. In the novel, Haigus is downright pitiable and not even really a monster: just sick and tired of endless life and ready to die. In the comics, Haigus is a sadistic beast who loves hurting people.
We see everything with the Collector, btw.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, thanks. BTW, someone added this to the end of the Cursed Bells entry (actually titled The Curse Bells btw; I requested the change):
- The clincher? The nameless warlock is very strongly hinted to be none other than Adolf Hitler.
edited 1st Jul '15 9:00:09 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Doesn't even like this username
14 and no according to my count, so here's my attempt at a writeup for Reiss (sans potholes):
Lara Croft Tomb Raider: The Cradle of Life: Jonathan Reiss is a brilliant scientist and Nobel Prize laureate who makes a living designing and selling biological and chemical weapons to wealthy criminals from around the world. When he learns of the existence of Pandora's Box and the plague it carries he sells the disease to his clients under the pretense that it's merely a highly potent bioweapon, but in reality it will spread across the world, killing anyone without access to the antidote he plans to create and provide only to the wealthiest and most powerful. In his quest to find Pandora's Box Reiss is merciless, even threatening to have a man's children infected with a deadly disease if he doesn't cooperate, and even as he dies he makes one last attempt to grab the Box.
to Barkus. He goes beyond the standard of a routine villain in that he has a far more brutal edge and vicious disposition and that he very likely has done the same to other women what he did to Emily.
There are a couple points in Firewall when Cox apologized for his tactics, but he wasn't sincere any of those times. Mainly because he kept doing them regardless. Thought it was worth bringing up.
Is Mickey from Scream 2 considered one? The Freudian Excuse clearly isn't a good one (he wants to be the subject of a sensational trial in which he says that the movies made him do it). It's clear though that Mickey is more about the killing though and even if he's not, he takes sick pleasure in it all.
Couldn't a Complete Monster be seen as someone who is mentally-ill and cannot sanely determine the difference between right and wrong?
edited 1st Jul '15 2:58:16 PM by futuremoviewriter
Barkis has already been cut. And no, a Complete Monster has to know what they're doing and be in control of their moral decisions unless one can dismiss what they see as "right" as "totally and utterly fanatical."
edited 1st Jul '15 3:19:45 PM by Scraggle
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Regarding Cox: That'd likely be Faux Affably Evil.
And like said, moral agency is key. The Joker and Kefka (and Carnage too, likely, who for some reason has an Even Evil Has Loved Ones entry on his character page, both him and the symbiote itself) may be Ax-Crazy, but they still know right from wrong (and Kefka apparently has a Freudian Excuse, but not enough to disqualify him).
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: The symbiote considers Cletus to be its one true host and hates being separated from him.
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones (this might not be canon): When Deadpool shreds their stolen car with a combine and badly injures Shriek in the process, Cletus becomes uncharacteristically pissed off.
edited 1st Jul '15 4:09:30 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
A total has-been.
Kefka's Freudian Excuse really only explains his insanity. We have no way of telling what his morality was before the magicite experiments, but if he willingly took them for the sake of his empire, I doubt he was that good a guy to start with.
....Carnage and Shriek? Genuine loved ones? Oh, that's a laugh. Carnage is savagely abusive in stories with her, brutally attacked her when she considered daring to go kill people without his permission and when their 'son' jumped to Shriek's defense, Carnage killed them and ordered the rest of the family to fall the hell in line.
Is it plausible within the story as presented that the I-Rex or whatever (I haven't watched it yet) is capable of choosing to be a peaceful dinosaur and get along with everyone, or at least not tear everyone it can find limb from limb? If not, then it is not a moral agent and cannot be a CM.
Unnervingly smart predator species are still predators by nature and cannot be blamed for doing what comes naturally.
edited 30th Jun '15 4:43:43 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"