Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

I'll say yes on Liddell. I'll also note that I find the question about "why don't the parents stop her" rather disturbing, if only because I don't recall anybody asking why say, the parents of Gregor Clegane's victims didn't stop him. I have a suspicion that the question's being posed because she's a girl, and if so, that's rather uncomfortable in all sorts of ways.

Regarding the version of The Joker from The Nail, I'm not sure he's actually different enough from his regular counterpart to be worth talking about. He kills Robin and Batgirl in front of Batman which is standard Joker behaviour. Honestly, The Nail's version of Luthor (who overthrows the government and establishes a totalitarian state) or even Jimmy Olsen (who tries to replace everybody on Earth with vaguely Kryptonian mutants and murders Superman's adoptive parents before his eyes) would probably make for a better discussion.

edited 27th Jan '15 7:57:06 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

Sorry for the assumption.

There's been several versions of the Joker, and all of them are worth analysis (scratch perhaps the original campy incarnation and TBATB's incarnation).

Still, this mini-series may have some qualifiers.

edited 27th Jan '15 8:30:20 PM by Scraggle

So, I noticed this on Fan Works:

• The Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door fanfic Better Off Alone has Beldam. Not only does she pick on and abuse Vivian for every little thing that goes wrong and give Vivian mental damage in the form of low confidence and self-esteem, but then she plans to take over the world and kill Vivian and her friends. She makes Vivian believe that her friends were just using her! When confronted about it, she simply says, "You say that as if it's a bad thing." Yikes!

Is this really heinous?

Not really.

Not at all, and it didn't come through here anyway so burn away!

Although seriously, double check that it never came through here and then burn away as any example not vetted here first should be auto-burned.

edited 27th Jan '15 9:10:59 PM by Shaoken

Well, the troper who added it never posted here, and I can't find any discussion for it, so..

Seriously? Beldam? A simple Jerkass who easily fails the heinous standard set by Bowser, The Shadow Queen, Dimentio, and even Fawful, Smithy, and Cackletta. And she is a relatively minor (albeit a reoccuring one) antagonist. Yeah, no. Burn with gasoline!

Also, no more thoughts on One Eye? Here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=1394#34834 is my current writeup. Well I guess I could try formatting my own write up if he's approved of. For a one-book villain, he does a lot, and meets the heinous standard set by Brokenstar, Scourge, and Tigerstar. Sadly, not very people in this topic seem to be very familiar with the books, but I'll kindly bring him up until a decision is decided.

Oh and are we really going to keep Tigerstar with the eBook existing that is outright stated to be as canon as the main series? He saves his children, so even though it seems like a colossal Ass Pull, we probably should take it into consideration. The only problem I have with cutting him is that he never seems to display any sort of affection for his children and it looks like he only saved them for pragmatic reasons. At least that's my interpretation.

edited 27th Jan '15 9:11:00 PM by Klavice

Well, we can't compare this to the original story of TTYD anyway(it is a fanfic, you know). That said, yes, somebody should read the fanfic itself and make sure this entry is either good or bad regardless. Cut it, then vote on it later after more information is given.

Or we can cut it and move on. Either way.

If the eBook counts as canon then we have to include it, so any disqualifying features in there would count. However as I haven't kept up with the argument if you could demonstrate that he loses the redeeming traits then we'd ignore it.

To give an example from the Walking Dead, the novels (which are canon to the comics) give the Governor redeeming traits at the start of them, but over the course of all the novels he slowly sheds each one and utterly rejects them even within his own mind (to the point where his dying thoughts are a constant rejection of everything redeeming about himself).

edited 27th Jan '15 9:14:45 PM by Shaoken

He loses the redeeming traits after his death, having plotted to kill Brambleclaw with his other son (who he doesn't give a damn about either), not caring that his son Hawkfrost is killed by Brambleclaw, and actually congratulates Brambleclaw upon him killing Hawkfrost again. After his death he essentially goes to the cat equivalent of Hell, plots to exterminate the clans, and trains living warriors giving them killing moves to use on their fellow warriors. He doesn't display any affection for any of his children in the book. The eBook takes place pretty early in Tigerstar's villainous career, being before he really started going over the Moral Event Horizon what with the actions he committed against halfClan cats and all.

In that case one can safely say he lost all his redeeming traits, so he isn't disqualified anymore.

We should probably rewrite the example to include that just in case someone tries to argue against his inclusion.

Add "while some may feel sorry for him because of his past, the authors outright state that this does not excuse him for his actions" to Scourge too.

edited 27th Jan '15 10:05:41 PM by Klavice

Entirely unnecessary, IMO

@Klavice

That's completely unnecessary. Including that in the description undermines the whole point of calling him a CM. It's editing for no real reason.

As for Tigerstar, if the E Book is canon we cut him, if it's not, we don't. You keep asking us what we're going to do there, but without something to tell us which it is, we're not going to move. Confirm for us that it's one or the other, or please let it drop.

And I still oppose the addition of One-Eye.

Any objections to cutting Beldam?

As noted before, Beldam has to be removed due to never going through here. Then the fanfic can be read properly to see if the character applies. The story may be different from the regular TTYD one(well, why wouldn't it be, anyway?).

The idea the character can never apply is a bit silly till we actually look at the work properly. A cut is definitely a yes, but whether it's permanent or not is still up for debate.

Yeah about Tigerclaw, the book is done from his POV, so it's obvious there's some DILP treatment going on there. As for it being canon, it's part of the expanded universe, not the actual book series, so if you consider the Expanded Universe canon, then it's canon. The expanded universe goes through different characters viewpoints as well as adds to the current story. I'm kind of on the fence about this, and I want to bring up both sides of the argument.

We might have to cut Brokenstar in that regard too, if we treat the expanded universe as canon. His Freudian Excuse actually does hold water somewhat. Not only was he abused by his foster mother, but he was also outright abused by ShadowClan in general all as a kit. He wasn't just beaten like Scourge, they outright denied him food (with the exception of Raggedstar and Yellowfang).

As for One Eye, if you guys don't think he qualifies, we won't include him, but I'd like a few more votes so we can settle this. So far we have three and only one .

Edit: i think I've read that fanfic before. Beldam doesn't even come close to qualifying. She's a HUGE Jerkass but she's only about as bad as Mr. G, as in just an abusive jackass, and that's nowhere near as heinous as any of the other Mario villains and especially not other Mario fanfic villains who commit genocide.

edited 27th Jan '15 10:49:51 PM by Klavice

This is also verging on Single-Issue Wonk

Re: this: Sorry . I wasn't thinking, though I guess it is like Gregor.

edited 28th Jan '15 7:57:35 AM by ACW

on Beldam. The heinous standard for the main series doesn't really need to be looked at for that fan work, though. On the subject of Mario Bros., apparently King Boo became an Omnicidal Maniac in Dark Moon. I'll look into that.

Could someone please submit the sandbox page for American Horror Story? Or show me how, and I could do it (I dunno how to do it, 'cause I'm mostly a lurker).

I'll do it this weekend.

I have a proposal from Law & Order: Special Victims Unit. William Lewis, a reccuring villain and might just be the most heinous rapist in the series.

Who Is He ?

Serial Rapist barely describes him. It's more like professional rapist. He's also a sadistic torturer. His MO is kidnapping a woman, raping them and torturing them for hours and even days, and is able to get off because his name is misspelled or his victims are too traumatized. In his past, he did it to his girlfriends mother before leaving her in an abandoned mobile home, filling her up with drugs and booze. In a later case he kidnapped two roommates, raped and tortured them for three days strait. He travels from state to state under various names and alias, but no secondary persona. He even burned his finger prints off to make it hard for him to find. He doesn't discriminate age either, seeing women of all ages to be prey.

What Does He Do ?

When SVU first arrests him, it was for raping a torturing a 68 year old woman for eighteen hours strait, burning her breasts and genitals with keys. He gets off for his victim being too traumatized. He later kidnaps Olivia Benson, places her in the trunk of his car while he has dinner with his defence attorney and her parents. After the attorney leaves, he attacks the parents, leaves the father to die of a heart attack, and rapes the mother in front of Benson. He later leaves to find a perfect house to rape Benson in, and kills a cop to take his gun and buys tools to torture her. He finds a house and plans to rape her there but a maid arrives with a young girl, who he also takes hostage. Benson turns the tables, ripping out a bed post and hands Lewis his ass. While down in out, he tries to goad her into killing him, and she snaps and beats him to an inch of his life. On his way to the hospital, he dies four times, but ultimately survives.

In his next appearance, he fakes innocence and injury during his trial, and makes Olivia relive the experience. He is found not guilty for attempted rape and murder, but guilty for assault and kidnapping.

In his last appearance, he escapes with the help of a sympathetic juror who thought he was wrongfully convicted. Following a medical emergency, he is placed in a city hospital, where he escapes the next day after raping a nurse and killing another cop. He goes to another nurses house where he kills her, molests the oldest daughter and kidnaps the youngest. He taunts Olivia with mindgames after being made a fugitive. He later arranges to met Olivia alone to rescue the girl, but takes her hostage. He takes them to a factory, where he begins his assault on Olivia, forcibly kissing her, groping her breasts, and lower regions, before getting turned off by her stoic demeanor. Instead he forces her to play a game of Russian Roulette, with mostly blank bullets. When he realizes the police are on to him, he pulls the gun and offs himself to escape once and for all.

Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits ?

No on the redeeming traits. He's cruel, sadistic and manipulative without an ounce of empathy, remorse or humanity. As far as Freudian Excuses go, well, he lost his virginity to his babysitter at a young age and when his father found out, he raped and killed her in front of Lewis before taking him out for ice cream - he described it as the best day of his life.

edited 28th Jan '15 11:20:22 AM by Beast

Already there. Could use an expanded writeup though.