During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yeah, but he might have been Grandfathered in, his entry might have been there before the Monster page was locked and the clean up thread began. Since he is not an completely obvious cut like some of the early examples, he may just slipped under the radar.
I can't seem to find any discussion him, I tried a couple of searches, so unless I am missing something, I am not sure we discussed him.
edited 31st Aug '14 10:43:02 AM by TheOverlord
Hmmmm...let's discuss him. While Pious is certainly corrupted, can it be said he actually lacks moral agency? He does become a willing servant to his Ancient and the Xel'lotath path implies he might even betray it
Well, he's a pretty normal guy before getting corrupted. I don't think he had much choice in the matter.
Not necessarily. Pious's own quote is "Aeons have passed since then, and I have learned much." In each path, Pious is described as being filled with the power of rhe Ancient. In Ulyaoth's case, he realizes the secrets of the multiverse. In Xel'lotath's case, Pious understand the workings of the mind and in Chatt'urgha's case, he is filled with incredible power.
It might be more a With Great Power Comes Great Insanity case than just forcibly altering his allignment.
I can't remember, do we see him right after he gets corrupted, or only years and years in the future? If he's evil right after, I'd say he lacks moral agency.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Can a "Well Done, Son" Guy count? Because Babidi's character page has that.
Side note: Why does DBZ have so many Buus?
edited 31st Aug '14 12:18:58 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I don't remember what's the case in dbz, but "Well Done, Son" Guy doesn't have to be disqualifier if the reasons aren't sympathetic.
As for the other question it's because of one Blob Monster that keeps getting different forms (each with a different name and personality) every time he absorbs something, or splits, or...
Pious first encounters the Ancents in about...50 BC. The next time we see him is about 560 AD
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
And I'm kind of wondering why Super Buu is still on the Dragon Ball page. I seem to recall a broad consensus back around the 500s that he had a serious moral-agency problem (he's the result of an ancient, childlike demon expelling the evil half of his personality to deal with a moment of intense stress, and then said evil half defeating the good half and thus taking both their power). Absorbing lesser beings (like most of the supporting cast) does make him smarter and more powerful, but it's hard to say whether it deals with the Made of Evil issue.
edited 31st Aug '14 2:23:32 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Super Buu was discussed earlier but there wasn't much consensus in either direction. I recall Shaoken, Ambar, Slender Mans Daughter and 32 Footsteps opposing and Paireon and A New Man supporting, at least.
Also, speaking of old remaining entries, I distinctly recall Scar getting a "cut" verdict in the past but is still on Monster.Disney.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Doesn't even like this username
Didn't we have a long discussion a while ago about how Scar actually qualified?
Yep, now that my Internet is working better again, I can find such discussion.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yes, the old cut was overruled, Septimus. We decided keep last time.
Super Buu...the bigges tissue (I hadn't cast a vote) was that absorbing others gave him intelligence to have agency. And if Piccolo has agency, anyone can with that stipulation.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes we did. Looking at the Edit History for The Lion King, it was added near the end of February or so.
Curses ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
BTW, I'm going through and editing Anime And Manga Subpages now. I'm unspoiling everything; those more knowledgeable can respoil if necessary. The folders without numbers in parentheses are done.
edited 31st Aug '14 2:52:28 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Buu. And Cell, for that matter. Both just doing what they were designed to.
That's not remotely true on Cell. We've seen in DB that any android can choose what it wants to do with its life. Android 16 was literally made to kill Goku, but made a conscious choice not to.
Cell is not a pre-programmed android. He's a fully sentient being who makes a choice to do everything he wants. When he achieves his goal and becomes 'perfect,' he also gets even worse.
Cell blatantly chose to do it. He was not "designed" to find the best fighter. He was designed to kill Goku just like the other Androids. He's a definitely yes for me. Are we talking about Kai or the original? Kai, he definitely chose to be a monster of his own free will. I don't think the original was any different, though.
I have yet to see the Super Buu saga(I saw up to the Cell saga in regular, uncut, and Kai), so I don't know which version of Buu befriended Hercules. I do remember that Uub is his friend regardless, and in GX especially, the original Buu cared about Hercules and such. However, I don't now how Uub was created at all. Like a reincarnation of Buu or something. If somebody would like to put that in spoilers so I can properly vote, please go ahead.
I don't want to go over Super Buu again unless we all make a decision to.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait, so not only do we have like 5 Buus, we now have Uub??? ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
I'm not doing it, but a suggestion if someone needs something to do: Go through One Piece and create a note for each page telling who's where.
As for Akainu, he either needs to be cut or the WIE part needs to be removed from his character entry. I'll rewrite to remove that as well.
edited 31st Aug '14 3:02:53 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
No, Uub(at least in GX) is definitely a very good person. I don't know how he came about in Z at all(or Kai, if it ever got that far). That may determine if Super Buu should count or not.
That's why I'm asking for the spoilered stuff to give a informed vote.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
No no, I'm not saying Uub is bad, I'm just amused how we have like 3 or 4 Buus and we also have a character named Uub. Looking at that and One Piece, how the hell does one keep all the characters straight?
Uub is a reincarnation of Kid Buu, only good. And human. Goku made a wish before he killed Kid Buu for him to come back as a nicer person. I don't know who this wish was to, or how it was granted, but he's not actually Kid Buu himself.
The Majin Buu that befriended Hercule is a separate entity from Kid/Super/Evil Buu.
edited 31st Aug '14 3:04:57 PM by Camberf
Ah, okay. Then it has no bearing on my vote. It wasn't Buu choosing to come back as good, etc. ...And huh. That is very noted. Why are they separate beings, then? Again, I know nothing here. Any details would help. 
Ah, okay.
To say the least, this is why I hate that Cartoon Network disappeared among my channels for a while. >_<
edited 31st Aug '14 3:05:17 PM by Irene
Even at the most charitable Akainu interpretation, he's more Knight Templar, so yeah, fix away.
Can he count if he's explicitly turned evil?