Ron the Death Eater Cleanup

Should I also cut the Ron the Death Eater example.

I was wondering if we still needed to list specific examples on Ron the Death Eater's main page? Because I added entries which didn't and was wondering if I needed to add like a specific fanfic where this character is villainized.

Edited by Bullman on Dec 26th 2021 at 8:54:07 AM

I remember we decided it wasn't required to cite specific examples from fanfics, though not disallowed.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Dec 26th 2021 at 8:15:39 AM

So after the trailer for Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness dropped, I noticed a lot of people taking Wanda's line "That doesn't seem fair" at face value and portraying her as unfairly vilified. Does anyone think she's a candidate for Draco in Leather Pants?

I mean, let's wait for the actual movie to see what she does? It could be talking about WandaVision, or it might not be.

Okay, but regardless of the actual context of the line, I'm seeing people compare her actions in WandaVision to Strange's actions in Spider-Man: No Way Home.

Edited by RustBeard on Mar 6th 2022 at 6:40:19 AM

Eh, I mean, maybe.

Even in the context of WandaVision, though, Wanda wasn't mean to be seen as heroic or villainous. She's very much meant to be ambiguous and conflicted, doing what she believes is right but at a great cost for herself and the people around her. So IDK if it'd be right to say that she's definitely being Draco'd in this case, especially if all we have to go off is her saying that it's unfair. I mean, I think there may already be an entry about it on YMMV.Wanda Vision, but even that's a bit conflicting because the work didn't portray her as being a bad person, just... very screwed up.

In fact the trailer to me sounded like they were sticking with her being flawed-yet-sympathetic, bitter-yet-well-meaning, like a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, not a villain. So how can she be a Draco in this circumstance, if we don't know why she's even talking about it and how she's actually portrayed in the end?

Over all, the point I'm trying to make is... if it's specifically about the Westview thing, then maybe it's valid, but then why attach it to this movie at all if we don't even know the context?

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 6th 2022 at 9:55:23 AM

Am I the only one who thinks Cobra Kai might be a little on the small side? Like it only technically has 8 entries, though only four examples are discussed. The YMMV.Cobra Kai pages is also nowhere near breaking with it at 83,134 bytes all together. Is this the pace to take this?

Edited by Bullman on Mar 23rd 2022 at 3:21:58 AM

We can create a separate page with as little as three examples, so it's technically fine.

This was under the film folder:

• Serpent's Kiss turns the secretary that kissed Captain America in Captain America: The First Avenger into a HYDRA agent who was attempting to assassinate Steve Rogers. This is an interesting example of this trope, as the author states they did this because they thought the character had some unexplored potential.

This appears to be a lone fanfic where the character is demonized. Is there any proof that other people in the fandom feel this way?

This probably can be moved to Adaptational Villainy.

She's obviously Moriarty.

I found these two examples under the Live-Action films folder:

• Pitch Perfect: Hilariously subverted in How Aubrey Got Arrested. Aubrey tries to host a Haunted House for a fundraiser, but it fails due to the laziness of the Bellas. This causes Aubrey to snap and start killing the other Bellas. However, this is later revealed to have all been an act.
• The Agony Booth's review of It's a Wonderful Life frames Mary as the villain of the film, causing George's poverty, his father's death, and his perpetual isolation in Bedford Falls due to having wished once that they could be married and giving away their honeymoon money. Interpreting her spur-of-the-moment wish as such ignores that 1.) even if Mary's wish caused Mr. Bailey's death, she had no idea it would go that way, 2.) Mary giving away the honeymoon money was done with George's full and no-reluctance consent.

In both entries, lone examples are cited. There's no indication that there is a larger fandom trend.

For the first one YMMV examples can't be Played With iirc, so feel free to cut that

The Pitch Perfect one is gone. What about the It's a Wonderful Life entry?

Sorry to double post, but I noticed that this entry was deleted from the Harry Potter subsection:

• Alan Moore's take on Harry in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen is a whiny sociopath who, on learning that he was supposed to be the Antichrist and that his adventures were all faked, snaps and murders everybody in the school including his friends, rapes McGonagall, and beheads the Headmaster before hiding out in Grimmauld Place for years, downing antidepressants before he's found out. When that happens, he becomes a giant with eyes in all the wrong places that pisses lightning (killing Allan) before being curbstomped by Mary Poppins (who is possibly God). He does have one excuse: his Headmaster is a certain Tom Marvolo Riddle (actually a Body Surfing mage from several decades prior, who calls Harry a disappointment).

There doesn't appear to be an edit reason for this. Was this a justified deletion or could the example be restored?

Well, it doesn't involve a fandom, it's a pastiche of the character (though he's not named for copyright reasons) in another work. Maybe Adaptational Villainy?

Edited by TheMountainKing on Apr 5th 2022 at 2:39:39 PM

I wouldn't consider it Adaptational Villainy as it's not really an adaptation. But the idea of this trope is that it relates to general trends on how a character is portrayed. Does someone making a Corrupted Character Copy count as proof of Ron the Death Eater?

I think it's just expressing Alan Moore's opinion, and he definitely doesn't consider himself part of the Harry Potter (or any) fandom. It's an unlicensed adaptation of the character, don't know if that counts for our purposes.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Apr 7th 2022 at 10:52:54 AM

I guess my concern was that I saw no edit reason for the deletion. Was that a legitimate deletion or could the example be restored?

Alan Moore mocks EVERY fandom though. Let's be real. He's astonished people took Watchmen seriously and thought that's what he wanted Superheroes to be like, when it's just Alan Moore being... Alan Moore. Also if we cut that, wouldn't we have to cut Cupcakes from MLP's page as that was made by an anti brony?

Edited by Klavice on Apr 7th 2022 at 12:35:53 PM

He's mocking the works, I don't think his worked is particularly concerned with fandom. Cupcakes probably should be cut, not just because the creator wasn't a fan, but because it was made as a joke, and doesn't represent a serious interpretation of the character.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Apr 7th 2022 at 3:54:40 PM

TRS decided RTDE and DILP only apply to/go under the original works who's characters are oft subject to such by the fandom. Specific creators or works doing it (like Alan Moore or Cupcakes) thus don't count as such and instead go under Adaptational tropes. (Cupcakes codified their RTDE portrayal but isn't one in and of itself.) The MLP page saying specific fics only predates the TRS and will need to be fixed/cleaned-up once we find the time.

Speaking of MLP, this proposed Draco in Leather Pants or Misaimed Fandom (which fits best if either?) example for it's Series Finale is being debated here:

• Many fans bemoaned Chrysalis, Tirek, and Cozy Glow's punishment of being permanently turned to stone by the heroes as unfair given how many other villains they've Easily Forgiven, especially Discord this episode despite him enabling the villains actions. Many fanworks avoiding or undoing their fate followed, oft giving them sob stories to justify their actions and/or redemptions. This overlooks each of the trio's evildoings^note attempted murder of the heroes, multiple attempts to conquer/destroy the nation and tricking friends and races into turning on each other being on par or surpassing what the Storm King and Sombra were karmically and uncontroversially killed for and the heroes only so punished them after they made 100% clear they'd refuse any efforts to redeem them and continue attempting such evildoing if given any lesser punishment. Also overlooked is that Discord, in contrast to the malicious and unrepentant villains, had genuinely well-intentioned motives that backfired which Discord showed genuine remorse for even risking his life to fix.

As written is was rejected as "It should be rewritten to focus more on the dissonance between the writers wanting the villains to seem irredeemable but the viewers not agreeing". If being about how they're treaded as sympathetic by fans and the canon reasons they shouldn't be isn't the dissonance what is? I don't think most if any DILP or MF examples are written significantly differently so is the focus on "the dissonance" required? Would it work better if we started with their canon wrongdoing then that they're unreasonably seen as sympathetic despite?

It was also stated the entry "doesn't make the case that fans are ignoring the villains' crimes just because they didn't like the punishment". Is fans thinking it was unfair despite the above deeds/circumstances not the same as ignoring deeds/circumstances? They have some arguments for their punishment being unfair covered by Unintentionally Sympathetic and Karmic Overkill, but does DILP or MF still apply as their actions showing them well past the point of reasonably assuming they'd be any less evil/deserving of such severe punishment even if they had fairer circumstances?

Stumbled on this on My Little Caboose: Blue is Magic!

• Draco in Leather Pants: Gamma, Sigma and Omega, BIG TIME. Let's take a look at their crimes in Red Vs Blue, shall we?
  • Sigma:
    • Was responsible for torturing the Alpha.
    • Drove his own partner permanently insane and used said partner to murder hundreds of people, including people that he had known and worked with, all so that Sigma could become metastable.
  • Omega:
    • Also helped torture the Alpha, as well as Mind Raping and slaughtering an entire outpost of soldiers out of sheer sadism.
  • Gamma:
    • He also took part in torturing the Alpha. In fact, his own torture was so heartless that even The Director himself the man who started the whole process, thought he was going too far. Gamma was also by far the most cold-blooded villain in the series, showing absolutely no emotion during his tortures. He even randomly tortured Alpha again during Blood Gulch, pretending to loop him through time, and making it look like every bad thing that happened was his own fault. While the other villains all had understandable motives for their actions: (The Director was driven insane by the death of his fiance, Sigma wanted to become Metastable and Omega was Hatred incarnate and was therefore just following his nature.) Gamma seemed to be motivated by nothing except cold hearted cruelty.
  • Heck, they were all listed as Complete Monsters at one point (With Omega even holding the page quote for the Web Original's Monster page) and were only disqualified because they were deemed to be Made of Evil.^note Not Hyperbole

Never read this fic,, but this is terribly written example, doesn't say how they're put into leather pants, also it's outdated as Sigma is listed as Complete Monster again.

I agree. I don't know the fic either. However, that example as written isn't even ZCE, it's outright misuse. DILP isn't "list the original work's heinous actions", it's "tell us how this character is transformed beyond his canon portrayal". That entry doesn't even try to do that. I'd remove it with an edit reason pointing back to this thread. If anyone who knows the work thinks it has valid examples, they can write a valid entry. Until then, I'd remove it rather than comment it out.

That's textbook misuse and it needs to be cut imo.