Needs Help (single prop crowner 10/8/2018): Common Knowledge

Common Knowledge strikes me as 'Did Not Do The Research but more specific', and a lot of CK examples are very similar to DNDTR in being long, overly-specific, nattery, or complainy, especially on its subpages, like CommonKnowledge.Video Games. Is there a way for the trope to be repaired or should we just zap a bunch of things?

Problematic examples from just Zelda and Pokemon:

"In the first game, the method of defeating Ganon was a mystery that the player had to unravel (or learn through word-of-mouth), but turned out to be two direct hits from a Silver Arrow (after striking him with a sword to turn him visible). This factoid was turned into a recurring plot point on The Legend of Zelda show that aired in the 80s, where Link already knew he needed to get two hits on Ganon to finish him off for good but could only ever land the first one before Ganon made an Exit Villain Stage Left. However, unlike in the games, his sword (or its beams) seemed to work fine for that purpose. "

" A lot of non-fans and media claim that Link's task in all the games is to Save the Princess. While this is true in a few games, it is very much not the case for all of them - most of the time, Zelda either doesn't appear at all in a game, or takes a fairly "backseat" role, and some games even have her working together with Link."

" The Pokémon world is often stereotyped by non-fans as "a bunch of kids enslaving wild animals and forcing them to fight each other". This is completely untrue. First of all, Pokémon in the series only feel enslaved if they are mistreated and/or not cared for properly, and are allowed to be released back into the wild if they do not feel comfortable being raised by a trainer. In fact, most wild Pokémon actually want to be captured by trainers, as many are in fact jealous of trained Pokémon. Secondly, Pokémon battling isn't the only activity Pokémon are used for; they are also employed as workers (for example, Chansey and Blissey make good nurses, while Machoke and Machamp are often used by moving companies) and training them is merely a way of exercising them, similar to dog-walking or playing with kittens; they are not "forced to battle" as a vast majority of them enjoy battling and are shown to feel mistreated if they are denied this freedom. On the other hand, the Pokémon who dislike battling are free to be kept as pets instead, and the Pokémon world considers it cruel and abusive to force them to fight if they do not want to. Lastly, Pokémon are not just owned by children in the series; a large majority of trainers are mature adults who, as mentioned before, make use of their abilities for various career or hobby-related purposes. Pokémon are even given the freedom to retire when nearing old age. "

" Contrary to popular belief, not a single player character in the series is 10 years old. Not one. At least, it hasn't been specified. The only player characters to have their age confirmed are Red during Generation I (and III) and the Sun and Moon protagonists, both of whom are said to be eleven years old. The reason the whole "ten years old" thing has been ingrained in the public consciousness is because of the popularity of the anime, whose main character is 10. Eternally."

" It is common knowledge that Red, the first protagonist, is a Silent Protagonist through and through. In reality Red has been heavily implied to speak, but we never really hear his dialogue. He also smiles in a good majority of the official artwork. It's also common knowledge that he spent three years on top of a mountain. In the games it's never stated he stayed on a mountain all this time. He could have been on his journey, ended up on the mountain training, and you came along. Red being an eternally silent character, however, became Ascended Fanon in later works: In both Fire Red and Leafgreen and Sun and Moon, Blue makes snappy comments regarding how silent Red is, and in both Black 2 and White 2 and the aforementioned Sun and Moon, Red only speaks in ellipses. "

"The games using Pokémon Speak. People say that only the anime does this and that the games only have them starting Pokémon X and Y. Let us clarify both points. The games actually use Pokémon Speak since the first generation. Yes, even before Pokémon Yellow where Pikachu got speaking roles (yes, Pikachu saying its name was older than X and Y). When people mention "Pokémon don't speak their names", they usually refer to the cries they make, forgetting the fact that the cries either are hampered by technology (you can actually notice Togepi's cry being similar to its anime talk) or follow the rule where intimidating/cool/adult Pokémon make more beastly groans (while subtly saying their names, see Charizard). People often forget that Pokémon NP Cs exist, and that talking to them you will realize that they DO speak their names◊. However in the early games (prior to Pokémon Black and White), they translate their speak literally, so when you talk to Jigglypuff, it will say "Pu-pu-ri!" or something similar, as its name in Japanese is Purin. It was in Black and White where they updated the speak so that talking to the Pokémon will say their English names. Overall, it seems to follow the same pattern as the Japanese anime — stuff that isn't an animal or has a sound-effect-based name uses its name, while others make more animal-type noises. And don't forget, way back in Red and Blue, when confronting Mewtwo... Mewtwo: Mew!"

" People often mistake or confuse Marill as a Pika-clone representative of Generation II. The truth is that Pokémon never considers Marill and its line being related to Pikachu at all as it considers Pichu the Pika-clone of said generation (if anything, Marill has more ties to Jigglypuff or Clefairy due to Igglybuff's sudden gender ratio change as it has more similarities to Igglybuff and Cleffa than Pichu). Even in Pokémon X and Y, there's a skin for the Battle Menu that features all of the Pika-clones and Marill isn't in there (there's actually a circulating photoshopped version where Marill is placed there for the purposes of trolling people). The source of all of this Pika-clone confusion can be traced back on magazine publications in the US. The infamous "Pikablu" as an original name for Marill used by magazines reporting the Pikachu Short of the first movie is the major reason as to why Marill is being related with Pikachu. It is something only the US had and it is still stuck to some people."

The description says that this trope can lead to Cowboy BeBop at His Computer, but some of those sound like they're already that way. In particular, the second Zelda example specifically mentions the media.

Edit: Also, the entry about Red from Pokémon contradicts itself by discussing how he's intentionally portrayed as silent in games that feature him as an NPC after claiming that he's only silent to the player. In addition, the fact that he stopped smiling in later games and remakes isn't exclusive to Pokémon; Kiryl from Dragon Quest IV went from this to this in rereleases of that game.

Another edit: Looked at the Red example again and the part that says he smiles in the majority of his artwork is wrong; that more accurately describes Ethan, who didn't become a Perpetual Frowner in his games' remakes. Red isn't smiling in all of his artwork for the original games (for example, the art of him on a bike, which is on Bulbapedia), and he never smiles at all in any artwork from the remakes and games released after them.

edited 16th Mar '18 8:20:29 AM by GastonRabbit

The definition of the trope is "Common Knowledge about a work, possibly from non-fans of it, that isn't true". Is that salvageable?

The Laconic page says " Something that is believed by the public to be part of a work or genre, but isn't." which reminds me of Mainstream Obscurity.

Dead Unicorn Trope comes to mind as well, particularly when they're genre- or work-specific.

edited 19th Mar '18 2:36:09 PM by GastonRabbit

And we already have Beam Me Up, Scotty! for one variant of it.

Not seeing anything wrong with the trope as such. it's well contrasted against any of the other tropes mentioned here. Btw, what's Did Not Do The Research?

A cleanup may be in order though.

Post from a related thread (Critical Research Failure).

Critical Research Failure is when creators get things wrong, Common Knowledge is when fans get things wrong. There's a grey area when both get it wrong. Are we discussing that part?

That post in the Critical Research Failure TRS thread says what Did Not Do the Research was. That might have been in response to your post, because you asked what DNDTR was.

edited 21st Mar '18 7:18:34 PM by GastonRabbit

CommonKnowledge.Comic Books is complainy, nattery, and very nitpicky.

" Everyone "knows" the classic lineup of the Teen Titans is Robin, Starfire, Cyborg, Raven, and Beast Boy, mainly due to the 2003 animated series. However, the actual original Teen Titans is from the '60s, and consisted of Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad, and Wonder Girl. While all of the aforementioned five have been members together in the past, the comics have never had the roster consist of just them. In fact, there have been quite a few more members than one would expect. The primary reason for why those five made up the roster in the show was due to Adaptation Distillation; to avoid having too much to work with. It makes perfect sense, as it's not strictly a team as much has it's a full-blown organization with many members similar to the Justice League — in fact, it's often considered the organization young heroes join before the Justice League."

" It's commonly assumed by the general non-comic audiences that anyone who has superpowers will become a superhero/villain in a superhero world. The reality is that we mostly see the ones who do, but there are plenty of superpowered characters in Marvel/DC who simply live normal lives, much like how not everyone in the real world becomes a cop or a soldier. An example of this that was explored was in Marvel's Civil War Crisis Crossover, where the congress passes a Super Registration Act that causes the titular event, and part of that act involves drafting superhumans to the government to become a civil servant, regardless if they want to or not. A specific example of this shown was when a mutate named Abigail Boylen, or Cloud 9, who has the ability to fly but had no desire to be a hero, and was stopped by War Machine for not registering. Though she later became a superhero during Avengers: The Initiative, after Iron Man won the civil war. Another example is that the vast majority of mutants at Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters don't become X-Men, they just go there to be in a safe place away from persecution."

" As for Lois Lane, everyone thinks she's a Damsel in Distress, can not figure out Clark's secret, prefers the powers to the man, and would not survive their wedding night...Except not: she's the poster girl for Damsel out of Distress, as she's◊ actually◊ mastered martial arts◊ and has been able to handle herself since very early on◊. She's known Superman's secret identity since 1993 (after actually suspecting it for years), and in numerous instances settled down nevertheless with a depowered Clark. Lois not only survived their wedding night in 1996 (and all the following) but also their son's birth."

"And as for Supergirl, everyone thinks she is a squeaky-clean, weaker Superman with skirt who never had a recurring villain and dated to her horse... Except not: she has a different personality (more impulsive, more short-tempered, more flawed), has always been established to be as powerful as her cousin, has her own Rogue's Gallery and didn't date her horse. Comet was a centaur-turned-into-horse. For a short time he got his human shape back and romanced Supergirl, who ignored that handsome rodeo star was Comet. "

CommonKnowledge.Pokemon has its own page now. Should make it easier to prune.

CommonKnowledge.Super Mario Bros and CommonKnowledge.The Legend Of Zelda are also pages now, fyi.

edited 5th Apr '18 1:51:13 PM by Pichu-kun

What is there to fix other than making it less natter-y though. I was the one who provided most of the Pokemon examples, particularly the Marill and Pokémon Speak ones.

EDIT: I don't get why they are removed though? Those two are factual encounters towards the fans.

edited 3rd Apr '18 7:33:37 AM by Ookamikun

The examples aren't removed from the page. They're just invisible until further consensus. I %'d them.

Ah I see.

I need resolution on those couple of entries in Pokemon because by god people are mistaking Mimikyu as a Pikaclone.

Arguing over fan terms cannot be considered Common Knowledge.

I agree. Common Knowledge should only apply to mistakes about things that came from official sources instead of anything fans came up with (such as Fan Nicknames/fan terminology or Fanon), aside from maybe thinking something fans came up with is official.

Edit: Now that I think it about it, thinking something fans came up with is official would probably fall under God Never Said That and not this.

edited 19th Apr '18 9:08:33 AM by GastonRabbit

But it is not a fan term, or rather it is a phenomenon, just that it has no official term. Already have proof of it in-game.

And what about the Pokémon Speak thing?

edited 19th Apr '18 10:20:21 PM by Ookamikun

Where is there proof in-game? I've been playing since Red and Blue and I've seen the various Pikachu-like Pokémon, but I haven't seen the games explicitly connect them, not counting cases like Plusle and Minun complementing each other. The previously mentioned X and Y background doesn't have anything to do with Togedemaru or Mimikyu.

edited 20th Apr '18 6:07:51 AM by GastonRabbit

they all share the same design - circular heads with circle cheeks and part electric, again the background in XY outright confirms this design choice, and obviously the XY background won't include Togedemaru because... it's a Gen VII mon

the reason why Mimikyu isn't is because a) it's not even a rodent but a ghost, the whole point is that it wants to be a pikachu to be adored and it being considered a pikaclone misses the whole point b) the design doesn't match those above at all

And again even if we ignore the fan term thing, Pikablu is a real thing that happened. That people mistake it as something related to Pikachu in spite in-game data saying otherwise (i.e. being more of a Clefairy line clone due to the weird gender swapping).

edited 20th Apr '18 6:26:36 AM by Ookamikun

Sharing a design isn't proof that what RallyBot said is wrong, and as I said nothing is confirmed with the Generation VII Pokémon.

As for the idea that Marill is related to Pikachu, that's a separate rumor from when only Generation I had been localized and Generation III didn't exist at all.

edited 20th Apr '18 12:27:59 PM by GastonRabbit

And as I said, it exists but lacks a "term" so to say. It's like shiny Pokemon, which only in until Gen VI became an actual term, else it was a fan-term (vs. the official "recolored Pokemon"). I don't get the response about Marill.

The TCG had "Shining [Pokemon]", and Stadium 2 had "Color Pokemon."

"The term "Shiny Pokémon" was first created by fans to refer to the sparkling sound effect and animation made at the start of an encounter with one in the games. Eventually, this term fell into official usage in Generation IV, used on promotional material promoting Shiny event Pokémon. The term Shiny Pokémon was first used in-game in Pokémon Black and White in Nimbasa City."