Needs Help: Punk Punk

So starting with Cyberpunk and Steampunk, the two most legit genres, we have:

Cyberpunk Definition A: Yes- computers-focused setting, gritty transreal urban style, social themes of rebellion against repressive dystopia.

Definition B: Not sure I see it. I guess cyberpunk "mashes up" science fiction with Film Noir and dystopian themes, but I'm not sure where the historical and modern elements come in.

Definition C: Yes- Hostile environment reliant on technology with a Used Future aspect, and exploitative society.

Steampunk Definition A: Yes- world built on a technology (steam) extrapolated to a high level. Definition B: Yes- mashup of modern technologies (such as computers) and values with Victorian technologies (steam) and aesthetics. Definition C: Not really seeing it. Steampunk is often optimistic, and downplays the exploitative effect steam technologies had in Real Life. It's a world reliant on technology, but not a harsh or hostile one.

For A, the "a gritty transreal urban style, or a particular approach to social themes."

This is not a thing with a lot of the punk styles, Clock Punk for an example is artsy clockwork mechanica with Renaissance and Baroque era clothing and architecture. The trope is almost entirely visual based and nothing requiring 'specific social themes' at all.

Atom Punk is also a distinct visual style usually more hopeful although there are a few more Fallout works which use Atom Punk as a base for a more gritty story.

Edited by Memers on Sep 17th 2018 at 9:45:58 AM

Clock Punk and Atom Punk do fit the technological part of definition A, however.

Edited by StarSword on Sep 18th 2018 at 10:21:45 AM

Agreed, that’s how almost all the Punk genre pages we have currently run as well.

The social themes and gritty looks are only connected to a few of the genres and even then there are works that defy those while keeping everything else. That’s why you see tag lines like ‘gritty cyberpunk thriller’ thrown around for a lot works. The whole second section on Cyberpunk is works that have everything else but tone/social themes or ‘gritty’.

Edited by Memers on Sep 18th 2018 at 7:38:37 AM

Definition A is an or, so you can have cyberpunk's gritty approach to social themes or its emphasis on a pervasive technology. That said, are there any -punk genres that aren't extrapolated off a technology? Maybe a better way to think about this is "A setting based off of a particular technology, with a focus on the social impacts of that technology". But that seems like it would cover a lot of science fiction.

But again, does "a lot of science fiction" that each focuses on extrapolating a different fictional technology as the core of the setting constitute a genre?

That's what keeps getting lost here IMHO. There's plenty of sci-fi that uses One Big Lie, but Mass Effect isn't Punk Punk just because the setting relies entirely on one particular Applied Phlebotinum. Its genre is Space Opera/Cosmic Horror Story.

That exactly. With the past Punk tropes like steam punk, they take the old era then drop the new tech into the setting and use that as the basis of everything.

In future iterations of punk its speculative on x tech transforming the setting but will keep it dealing with living in the world.

Mass Effect's eezo has elements of Bio Punk and Cyberpunk, mostly in the first and second games where you see the world and a few party members dealing with the growing pains with the cybernetics and biotics, it does not quite follow through entirely and forgets it in the third one. It is worth mentioning though especially with the different backgrounds you get to choose from with the classes, an adept + earthborn's background would be basically living in AKIRA.

Edited by Memers on Sep 19th 2018 at 2:23:04 AM

I think there's generally some element of what I would call "whimsy" in Punk Punk settings. It's not easy to define but you can see it most clearly in the Steampunk family and in the less-dark Cyberpunk works: a slight self-awareness that "yeah, this is goofy, ain't that cool?".

I don't know if "whimsy" exactly fits some of the grimmer settings, but here's something similar: all have a stylized, distinctive aesthetic that is derived from the technology it's based around. Cyberpunk has a dark, Film Noir-esque visual style that reflects the exploitativeness of technology, Steampunk has a stylized Victorian/Edwardian aesthetic that's based on the steam technology, Biopunk has gratuitous tubes and People Jars, etc.

There are obviously other speculative fiction aesthetic styles, like Crystal Spires and Togas or Everything Is an iPod in the Future, but those are more divorced from the tech/the story's view on the tech and say less about the story.

Honestly, Punk Punk seems like a name looking for a trope. I say cut the damn thing.

The thing is, Punk Punk is an index and a snowclone magnet. In my opinion, the greater problem is that of the pages on the index, some of them are just bad snowclones, while others are legitimate genres that have some kind of kinship to Cyberpunk. Figuring out which is which is the hard part, and we need some kind of criteria to do so. Getting rid of the page won't help us with getting rid of bad subtropes.

Maybe renaming to Cyberpunk Derivative might help with the snowcloning, but we still need a definition of what that is.

Edited by naturalironist on Sep 19th 2018 at 6:21:21 AM

Isn't this index, at the end of the day, basically a search generated index, though? It is nothing of value other than giving credence to made up punks.

Edited by Larkmarn on Sep 19th 2018 at 11:25:26 AM

They're only "made-up punks" if they fail to meet the minimum criteria of being a -punk genre (by whatever definition we ultimately finalize, and we've already identified one that will almost certainly be renamed and de-listed under any of the proposals). -punk genres absolutely exist, they're not a term bored tropers made up, ergo this is absolutely not merely a search-generated index.

Speaking of, any objections to starting a page action crowner to pick a definition?

Edited by StarSword on Sep 22nd 2018 at 9:47:03 AM

I think that's a good idea. We can also include cutting the page as an option.

I don't really have a problem with the 'most' of tropes contained, most of them are perfectly fine except for a few of the names not being the currently used ones or misleading puns that need to be changed. With the lone exception of Desert Punk which needs either a massive rework or Trope Transplant of an actual Desert Punk trope.

The page itself should be organized differently though, with established genres on top then TV Tropes originals under it. Having TV Tropes originals imo is perfectly fine, thats pretty much what this site does but not mixed in with established genres.

Edited by Memers on Sep 22nd 2018 at 11:04:36 AM

Crowner open.

Crowner hooked.

Of the three options, in my opinion, using the pre-existing definition and weeding out non-fitting works (for example, removing works from Stone Punk that are just "work is set in caveman times") is the best option. Cutting is the worst option, since this is definitely a pre-existing set of terms and subgenres. Saying Punk Punk is "a title looking for a trope" implies it's just something this wiki randomly made up (The term "punk punk" itself may not be used outside this wiki, but Steampunk, Diesel Punk, Cyberpunk, and many other, lesser-known "_ punk" subgenres are).

Edited by Lymantria on Sep 24th 2018 at 7:37:43 AM

Bump for votes.

Do you think this has enough support to be called?

Yes.

Touching base since it's been several months. Do we have unfinished business?

Yes. We need to re-write the description to reflect the new definition, and start going through which subtropes fit.

I think we agree that Steampunk and Cyberpunk fit. I suggest we just go though each subtrope one by one, and give it a thumbs up/thumbs down. An effortpost format might be appropriate.

To get the ball rolling, here's Stone Punk.

Given that rock-based technology seems to be the core of the trope, I suppose it technically fits "a world built on one particular technology that is extrapolated to a highly sophisticated level". However, looking over the examples, there is heavy overlap with One Million BC and/or Bamboo Technology. Most of the examples on the page are ZC Es, but from what I can tell only a few of them actually involve pervasive, rock-based technology, as opposed to using it as a quick gag. Finally, the Trope Codifier seems to be The Flintstones, which predates Cyberpunk, violating the spirit of Punk Punk as "cyberpunk derivatives".

I suggest cutting Stone Punk for not being a real trope.

I think Stone Punk is a real genre, but it may well deserve a rename. I would define it as Present-Day Past applied to the prehistoric era, usually with mammoth (pardon the pun) levels of Schizo Tech and Anachronism Stew.