Diversity and Representation in Media

Come on, Lucasarts. Obviously this should've happened a long time ago, but if there was ever a time where we needed this, it's now.

Also: Steven Paul, the producer of the upcoming (and infamously whitewashed) Ghost in the Shell, is set to produce an English-language adaptation of the beloved Japanese story Lone Wolf and Cub.

Uh oh.

Oh, but never fear, he claims that he plans to have the film star "an essentially Japanese cast," whatever that means. Does "essentially Japanese" mean...you know, Japanese? Or, more likely, does it mean "mostly Asian people of some sort, except for the main guy, who's inevitably white?"

edited 29th Jun '16 7:09:24 PM by RBluefish

Watch it mean "I feel like they have a spiritual connection to Japanese culture" as they cast all white dudes.

On a better note, is anyone here watching Cleverman? It's a really good sci-fi show made by, starring, and about Indigenous Australians. I'm really enjoying it so far.

That's, unfortunately, probably true.

Anyway, I heard some rumblings about Cleverman, but I haven't had the chance to check it out yet - I keep meaning to. It sounds pretty intriguing.

It would be redundant to cast Lone Wolf and Cub as white, there's already Road to Perdition.

They made the live action Fist of the North star even though it was just Mad Max with Kung-fu... With a white guy as Kenshiro.

edited 29th Jun '16 8:46:29 PM by Thesegougou

Redundancy is not something that scares Hollywood.

The idea of nonwhite leads, on the other hand, apparently scares the crap out of them.

I'd... actually be pretty okay with a white Kenshiro. It's not like there's much of any culture left to speak of in Fist Of The North Star's setting, so it's not changing a damn thing.

Even the name, since he gets called Ken all the time anyway.

I'm honestly guessing that Lone Wolf And Cub being "essentially Japanese" means "mostly Asians will be cast, but not necessarily Japanese ones."

I might be a bit optimistic. But after 47 Ronin's abject failure, I honestly don't think they'll do essentially the same thing (adapt a beloved tale, shunt in an apparent White Male Lead [yes, I know Keanu isn't strictly-speaking white, but the executives and more importantly the filmgoers think he is]).

You know, there is something to say about the fact that Keanu Reeves is basically considered the perfect White Male Lead, blank slate actor to let audiences project themselves onto and he isn't even fully white.

He's part Hawaiian, isn't he?

You'd think people would be clued in that he's sort of foreign by the fact that his first name is Keanu.

He's IIRC the one actor/producer in Hollywood that has fought for a faithful adaption of Akira due to liking the manga so much. I think he ended up passing on the movie that's now being made which might be a sign.

edited 30th Jun '16 8:20:39 AM by LordofLore

White people have "funny names" all the time. And that face◊ to most people is mighty white.

edited 30th Jun '16 8:26:01 AM by Watchtower

It always looked a tad Asian to me, but then I obviously don't speak for everyone.

You can see it if you look for it or already know about it, but he's white-passing enough to not offend out-of-touch executives and have a lot of people assume he's just similar to Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

As for Lone Wolf and Cub, I don't think it's a good idea for them to remove it from Japan. it has more of an argument for being inextricably Japanese than Ghost in the Shell does since yes, the latter is somewhat informed by the Japanese politics of the era, but the cyberpunk and transhumanist themes are more important. Lone Wolf and Cub isn't impossible to adapt but it requires a lot more changes to work, like the Road to Perdition example mentioned earlier.

edited 30th Jun '16 9:48:29 AM by AlleyOop

That's a whole other debate, the "look." Chloe Bennet (who plays Daisy on Agents of SHIELD) talks about, being half-Chinese, she was told that she wasn't "White enough" to be the lead, but also didn't look "Asian-enough" to be the Asian best friend. Wentworth Miller is mixed-race, but IDK how many people would realize that just by looking at him. Sir Ben Kingsley is half-Indian, but a lot of people don't know that either, and so on and so forth.

It brings up that debate of "is being POC enough" or do you have to "look POC" or else it "doesn't count." It's a debate that I've always found, awkward, to try and respond to myself.

It's horribly awkward but it's definitely relevant to the thread and to the issue of diversity and representation as a whole.

And with Keanu Reeves and Chloe Bennet I had to be told that they were half Asian but once I was told it was a little more clear to me. It does goes to show that there are some "safe bets" I guess Hollywood people can make if the execs don't feel people of colour sell there will be " ways out" with mixed race people who could be "white enough" which is probably a cynical way of looking at it but there is a reason why But Not Too Black exists.

But it has the added unfortunate implication that mixed race people don't count when not only they do but probably need representation just as much since we as humans don't like things that straddle lines, we naturally like our nice neat boxes, it makes life easier if things are one thing or another.

It's... complicated.

Kingsley may be half Indian but he looks full Indian.

...Even if some of his later roles make us wish he didn't.

And you've got the mixed race actors that weren't getting work until they changed their screen name from something ethnic to something... whiter. Like, say, Chloe Bennet. Nee Chloe Wang.

@Alley Oop- I was thinking the same. While I totally think GITS could be translated to a different setting, Lone Wolf and Cub is more difficult because it's all about Jidaigeki setting and tropes. Those tropes can be transferred with some success to say a Western or some kind of Gangster setting, but it wouldn't quite be the same.

Edit- Was also thinking of something regarding the Rumi movie or the argument about "white minorities". I think it ultimately comes down to the degree of "brownface" (or in other circumstances, "yellowface", etc.) the actor has to do for the role. So like with Rumi, yeah Persians are white by some definitions, but if Leonardo Di Caprio or Robert Downey Jr. played the character, as opposed to an actor with Iranian ancestry, they are going to be changing their appearance a fair amount more than the alternative.

edited 30th Jun '16 1:20:45 PM by Hodor2

I'm willing to say that even among roughly the same ethnicity, you can notice some regional variations. Mediterraneans and Middle-Easterners look similar, but not exactly the same and, in turn, distinctly different than Irish or Scandinavians. Hell, among Asian-American actors you have Chloe Bennet, Dichen Lachman and Mark Dacascos in Agents of SHIELD alone, and they all look completely different.

So nope, I'm totally not seeing Di Caprio playing a Persian.

I wish I could agree. But really, you'd think that after the abject failure of things like Avatar: The Last Airbender, Gods of Egpyt, Exodus: Gods and Kings, Aloha, and countless other more obscure examples, executives would have learned the lesson that's staring them in the face. But look around. They have their fingers jammed firmly in their ears - except for the middle fingers, of course, which are perpetually raised towards people of color. They will do exactly the same thing in a second if they think they can get away with it - and let's be honest, right now, they probably can.

Doctor Strange especially concerns me, because as an MCU movie, it's pretty much guaranteed financial success, and it has a good chance of garnering a positive critical reception as well. So for years to come, everybody will be able to point to it and go, "see? Whitewashing sells! Let's keep on doing it!" It'll give them another excuse to add to their long and ever-growing list. Ghost in the Shell similarly worries me, although it at least has some chance of flopping (and if it does, I will laugh like a maniac and dance a merry jig).

On the subject of mixed-race actors...yeah, it's a tricky and incredibly awkward situation to even discuss. On the one hand, obviously part-white PoC exist (I should know), and they deserve to be recognized and represented every bit as much as everybody else does. And you also have to factor in the fact that they tend to be marginalized within their own communities, with other people of color refusing to acknowledge or respect their racial identity. For example, it's incredibly common to see full Asian-Americans sneering at biracial Asian-Americans (such as Chloe Bennet, or Jessica Henwick), claiming they're not "actual" Asians, or that they somehow "don't count." It creates an ugly culture of racial elitism and gatekeeping within minority communities - who already get quite enough of that from white people, thank you.

But on the other hand, it's also vital to recognize the colorism present in casting decisions. White-passing actors are frequently seen as being more acceptable or palatable to white audiences - But Not Too Black being what it is - which leads to them being favored over other, less white-presenting actors when it comes to major roles. Hence the casting of Keanu Reeves in 47 Ronin - yes, he has some Asian ancestry, but let's be frank - he looks pretty white, which is why he was (nominally, at least) the main character.

Now, in fairness, from what I hear the director fought against Keanu's inclusion, but he was forced on them by - you guessed it - idiot executives. And even Keanu himself thought that his character's role shouldn't be so prominent. When the presented the first draft of the film, executives mandated reshoots that placed more emphasis on Keanu's character, so assuming everything I heard is accurate, it's not really the filmmaker's fault. But that's really neither here nor there.

As someone who is a biracial Asian-American, I genuinely hate that every time I hear about a mixed-race actor landing a major role, I'm always forced to wonder, "okay - did you do that to provide valuable representation for an underrepresented demographic that struggles with invisibility and marginalization...or did you do that because you thought it was the whitest person you could get away with?" It's rare enough that people like me get represented in media - now even when it happens, I'm being forced to question the motives behind it rather than just appreciating it. And that's not fun.

As far as the actual quality of the movie, even disregarding the whitewashing, the past works of the crew don't exactly inspire much confidence. the director's previous film, snow white and the huntsman, is considered pretty lackluster as far as i'm aware.

Now, that movie was a financial success regardless, but it had the enormous pop culture presence of the snow white story to generate interest. Git S is well-known within its genre but isn't anywhere near as well-known to the general public. In other words, if the film is mediocre and doesn't get good word of mouth, I can easily see it being a failure. With that said, mediocre films make bank all the time, so it's really up in the air at this point and I think will highly depend if the film can offer general audiences anything substantial despite the whitewashing.

edited 30th Jun '16 11:48:52 PM by wehrmacht

Not to mention the entire scandal with Kristen Stewart during the making of that film, which would obviously made some people nervous about seeing this film, hurting the BO.

I think the attitude towards biracial depends on the communities, really. The Latino and Asian community practically sneers at the face of biracial people because of how easy they can pass as "white" while the black community has less discrimination because: 1. They cannot easily passed as "white" if mixed race. 2. Biracial is a prominently feature in this community simply because it has been there longer, ever since the slave trade.

edited 1st Jul '16 6:47:32 AM by shatterstar

Random comment: There's a kung fu movie called Tai Chi Zero where, for some reason, both female leads were mixed race.

Yet one (half-white, half-Asian) wasn't portrayed as anything but purely British, and the other (3/4 Asian) was never portrayed as anything but purely Chinese. It was just rather interesting.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, but the Academy invited 683 new members earlier this week, in response to the #OscarsSoWhite controversy of the past two years.

A few of the members include folks like Ryan Coogler, Idris Elba, John Boyega, Oscar Isaac, Chadwick Boseman, America Ferrera, Michelle Rodriguez, etc.

edited 1st Jul '16 8:07:14 AM by higherbrainpattern

I'm surprised that Coogler, Elba, and Isaac weren't there already. The latter two have been accomplished/successful actors for years and years now, and the former hasn't made a bad movie yet (crosses fingers that Black Panther will continue that streak).

But then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.

Depends. I've actually seen the reverse. A lot of Latin@s point out that any race can be Latin, it's not a matter of being biracial since having one Latin parent is enough to make you one, regardless of whether they're Afro Latin, Chinese Latin, Indo Latin, and so on. There's the matter of discrimination against Latin@s of primarily indigenous descent but that's a separate issue and I've never seen hate against biracials on that front.

Now as for black/white biracials, that's a shitstorm in a bottle. Seen a lot of nastiness there, a lot of comments on how the white parent being seen as "stealing" the black parent from their rightful people and such.

Same here. Those guys have been successes for a while now. Says something about how insular the Academy is.

edited 1st Jul '16 9:25:09 AM by AlleyOop