What qualifies as a work?

The "common sense" standard that I would apply there is that works need more than three tropes before we make articles for them. We say that articles need 3 tropes to avoid being cut, but Works Needing Tropes expects at least ten. It is reasonable to say that a work that has fewer than ten tropes simply isn't enough for a work page anyway. That's why most songs don't have articles.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'm asking for the fourth time since I didn't get a clear answer. This is directed to Synchronicity and/or Fighteer:

Is anyone allowed to make a new Administrivia page, or only some people?

Please visit the "AITA" forum game

I would say with regards to the worthiness of a work being tropable, "I know it when I see it." A couple of rules I keep in mind, I'm not certain if these are set in stone site policy but they at least seem to be de facto if not de jure rules:

1. Even if it's autobiographical, if it's presented like a work of literary fiction, it unambiguously counts as a work. This includes things previously mentioned like I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings (although notably, we don't have pages for Angelou's other six autobiographies and most of the graphic novel autobiographies we've mentioned.

2. Diaries and other first person, on the scenes accounts of events are generally not tropable. The Diary of a Young Girl is kind of the exception that proves the rule, mostly because of its status as a popular School Study Media, as well as the fact that it has several adaptations that are tropable in their own right, mostly for film and theatre. Otherwise these sorts of things fall closer to journalism than works, and we don't trope journalism. Media based on them are tropable, like the aforementioned The Diary of Anne Frank, and on rare occasions one might be warranted a Useful Note, but otherwise no.

3. Celebrity tell-all memoirs and anything generally gossipy doesn't count. This includes stuff like, Jeanette McCurdy's book, Leaving Neverland, and any number of "These beloved celebrities were terrible people" or "These beloved films/TV Shows/whatever were hellish Troubled Productions" autobiographies. The frequently invoke NRLEP tropes like Abusive Parents and various sexual harassment/rape tropes. The exception I'd say that proves the rule here is Mommie Dearest, the film of which has transcended the Joan Crawford hit piece it was intended to be and become an icon of So Bad, It's Good cinema and Camp, but honestly I'm not certain if it belongs in the Literature namespace at all, particularly since the book's been the victim of Adaptation Displacement in the forty years since.

4. Hoax autobiographies and fiction misleadingly passed off as non-fiction are tropable as a concept but frequently don't have enough interest behind them to actually get pages. This is a weird and controversial section of the literary world and not a lot of these sorts of works have pages, but I would say that particularly some of the more notable (and unambiguously denounced as) forgeries wouldn't be disqualified. For instance, we do have a page for Go Ask Alice, but no pages for A Million Little Pieces or JT Le Roy.

5. Pure Misery Lit (that isn't satire, like I, Partridge: We Need to Talk About Alan) is rarely tropable unless some major adaptation is made of it. I'm seeing that there's a page for A Child Called "It" and it's nearly entirely using NRLEP tropes about real people and chronicling the post-publication slap-fest between the author and one of his brothers that tried to disprove the book. Can we nuke that one?

Edited by MissConduct on Sep 22nd 2022 at 3:01:02 PM

I noticed that Industrial Society and Its Future has a page. Should it be cut?

On what basis should it be cut? It's technically not even Non-Fiction, as it is an opinion/propoganda.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

It's a manifesto, so I don't think it counts as a fictional work.

So, Administrivia.Real Life Troping exists now, which is very helpful. Thanks!

Also, I made a post in the Locked Pages forum thread about something I think should be added, but I also think Synchronicity should double-check to see if it is appropriate to add.

Please visit the "AITA" forum game

Is Film.Project Nim tropeworthy? I discovered it while wick cleaning, and IDK if it's fictionalized enough or not.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I think the article currently leans a bit too much into editorializing about the real life situation when it should only be describing the film. Entries shouldn't be describing "So-and-so locations/people are terrible", they should be describing "The documentary emphasizes the inhumane treatment of".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Any thoughts on Series.Match Of The Day?

It's a soccer coverage show, and we don't trope live sport.

It's a Long Runner. It has a Theme Tune. It is a variation on The X of Y.

Everything else is troping the commentators in one way or another. The Hyena and Butt-Monkey, for example.

I'm thinking there might be a good argument to cut it, but interested in other tropers opinions.

I don't think soccer coverage show equals live sport. But the problem is that by the trope list it's not a "show" enough, it's just reactions of little people and isn't a transformative content.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

If it's just the sports commentary version of a Let's Play and has no, like, jingles or mascots or gimmicks enough to support a trope article about them then I don't think it's tropeworthy.

Not defending that particular The Hyena entry as it's pure ZCE, but I think 'host persona' characteristics can be troped as long as it's clear to be such.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 16th 2023 at 12:42:31 PM

I'll give it a couple more days for tropers to chime in here, or on the discussion page. If nobody has a different view, I think it's heading for the cutlist based on the comments so far.

Thanks!

And it's cut.

Would Paleo Analysis' youtube series history of the earth be worth a page.

Iys a documentery series charting the history of prehistory animals. It also features jokes, pop culture references like Pokémon and a talking companion that the narrator who is an animal from the era their in interwxts with in comedic fashion.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

I'm not convinced Indian Summer actually warrants a page. Apparently they're culturally relevant, but their entire musical output is less than an hour long, making them have less content than most individual albums. They technically have "3 narrative tropes" with No Title, Careful with That Axe, and Epic Rocking, but all of those describe the production of a song, not any storytelling. The rest either describe the band themselves or are zero context.

they/them pronouns. Look at my Neocities.

So is this a thread to see if you can make a page for something or whether an existing page shouldn't be here?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

I noticed Super Sentai Hand Off is a page. I don't think it qualifies as a work in itself- it's just a group of scenes that happen at the end of each Super Sentai series. Checking the history, the page has only ever had one contributor.

Edited by Kayube on Mar 30th 2023 at 1:10:52 PM

Super Sentai Hand Off is not a work and should be cut, it's redundant with Super Sentai examples at Spinoff Sendoff.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 30th 2023 at 8:14:02 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

A related question, prompted by discussion here and here -

If the creator/publisher directly states that something is a new, separate work, e.g. relaunching it as a Sequel Series, when it's clearly continuing the same arc as their previous work, how comfortable are we giving it a page of its own vs. deciding they're the same and combining the two?

In the example quoted, we've got the same creators, a tiny change to the title, and a plot that continues through with no "end of book one" set piece finale. If the creators hadn't actively drawn a line between the two, restarting instalment numbering and stating it was a "sequel series" I don't think the audience would have known - but I can also think of a few other works where that applies (A Song of Ice and Fire veers that way at times, for example), and I guess there's a wider principle here as well.

So should/can we decide that they're really a single work and treat them accordingly for pages and indexes? (Edit: as opposed to, say, creating a page that's for a trilogy or series as a whole, but still acknowledges them as separate).

All of this assumes we've got plenty of distinct trope examples and no stub or duplication issues to influence a decision.

Thoughts?

Edited by Mrph1 on May 22nd 2023 at 10:19:13 AM

No feedback on this one?
On a different note:

Long-Runners is one of several pages that's basically an index. However, some of the things indexed aren't what we'd normally consider tropable works, generally because they're sports or news-related. For example:

If something's not a work we can trope, is including it in a list like this the sort of thing that's more appropriate for The Other Wiki?

Edited by Mrph1 on May 22nd 2023 at 10:57:49 AM

Uhh...case by case, I think, with some deference to how they are marketed. I am a work page splitter, but if something doesn't seem too drastic I'll probably trope it on the parent work first. And then if it develops a healthy trope list I'll probably split it off. probably yeah

Do we have a policy on troping chat shows as works?

Just looking at The Graham Norton Show - assuming it does qualify, we've probably got a lot of NRLEP cleanup required (tropes such as Butt-Monkey being used for guests, etc.)

I can see Non-Fiction Series has a "Variety Talk Show" section, but not sure what the guidelines are on deciding that any such show is or isn't tropeable?

Edited by Mrph1 on Jun 18th 2023 at 12:09:21 PM

I am pretty sure we don't trope talk shows that don't have creative content if I remember correctly.

EDIT: Real Life Troping says this:

• Examples for Non-Fiction works (especially Biography, Documentary, or Talk Show) must describe either the staged performance, the setting, artistic elements, or the commentary on other works. If a work has none of those, it does not belong on the wiki. Examples are written in the context of the work, not as if these are undisputed historical facts.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 18th 2023 at 7:12:28 AM

Macron's notes