Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Everyone doesn't hate it. Some people do but at best it still has positive reception. I personally kinda liked it and I have a bit more of a connection to it than I did for any part of the OT (I'd need to watch more of the PT to get an opinion on it).

Possibly? While it doesn't suffer from Jar Jar (which improves this movie magnificently), it did first gain nigh-universal praise, only later getting bashed for its flaws, like Phantom Menace.

Don't worry. I liked prequels, so i don't know anythig either.

edited 19th Nov '17 11:36:26 PM by kaalban

If it's Phantom Menaced then it's at a lesser extent when compared to The Phantom Menace. TPM has a lot more visible flaws than TFA from what I've observed.

TFA is a film whose reception will depend on what choices TLJ will make. A great deal of that movie involves the Mystery Box. And the Mystery Box needs a satisfying answer to make it worth it.

If the Mystery Box fails to satisfy audience in TLJ, then expect a wave of negative backlash entering into TFA for hyping the next movie to impossible standards. Then I would expect a closer analysis on certain tropes that the film used. George Lucas always said that Star Wars films are supposed to echo one another like poetry. He did it not because of a desire to pander to the fanbase, but to set tonally narrative of history repeating itself as well as Generation Xerox. This is important to keep in mind because TFA, in my opinion, tends to openly use repeating Star Wars tropes and not doing enough to make it distinct from the other films (and that becomes distracting). Most notorious is the Starkiller Base.

These tropes cannot be used as dressing; they have to invoke a deeper, narrative meaning overall. And really, I'm still giving TFA a pass for now as long as TLJ doesn't do anything stupid like say make Rey a random person with no connection to the Skywalkers or turn Kylo Ren into a sad puppy who will turn good. Because then, the backlash against TLJ will bleed into TFA as the two are interlinked thanks to that cliffhanger ending.

edited 19th Nov '17 11:40:38 PM by Shadao

I don't think the movie is as dedicated to a mystery as you say, and in any case certainly doesn't end on a cliffhanger. Or more precisely, the movie's actual cliffhanger is largely unrelated to the question of Rey's parentage or Kylo's morality. Narratively speaking, the latter has been answered already anyway.

The majority of "mystery" angle actually comes from the fanbase, due to those fans taking an intentionally unexplored aspect of backstory and extrapolating is as the crux of the character's entire identity on their own, at times in spite of what the movie actually did with the character's arc (arguably, the fact that there is nothing worth explaining there is part of the point: the fact that there's literally nothing there to hold onto makes the fact that Rey should move on more on the nose).

I'm pretty sure regardless of whether Rey turns out to be a Skywalker or not, the consistency of the movies would be just fine. Movies have survived fan theories being jossed before.

edited 19th Nov '17 11:48:27 PM by KnownUnknown

The majority of the mystery speculations may have been overblown, but it should have not been encouraged by Lucasfilm UNLESS they figure that the answer to their questions will be satisfying. The failure to satisfy at least the majority can spark significant backlash and do not think that it has not happened before.

The Mandarin Twist is a good example of that. While the movie made the most money out of the three Iron Man films, the Mandarin twist sparked a huge backlash and controversy that not even Guy Pearce's Killian being the True Mandarin was enough to sedate the fans given that Marvel had to retcon the whole thing by having the real Mandarin exist but offscreen and likely never revisited. Iron Man was fortunate to have finished his trilogy and become a guest star in other Marvel films and Captain America: The Winter Soldier gave new life to continue with the MCU but it is highly unlikely that we'll revisit the Ten Rings again, and Marvel's flat supervillain problems continues to persist.

Of course, that would be for Rey Random after all of that hype and mystery. If they do Reylo on the other hand...

Well I expect a Passengers backlash instead.

edited 19th Nov '17 11:57:31 PM by Shadao

Satisfying is subjective, and ultimately whether general audiences think a movie did its job right boils down to more than "I wanted this theory to be right, and it wasn't."

It's worth noting that the reception to the Mandarin twist was more of a Broken Base then an entirely negative response, and that the reason that negative side of the coin existed in the first place was a great deal more complex than you paint it: the Mandarin himself is an already established and important character, the previous movies explicitly moved to set him up in a well documented way before the series changed hands and ideologies, and because the character who took his place frankly wasn't all that interesting or engaging - it wasn't just because people wanted him as the villain and then he wasn't. Nor was the idea that the Mandarin as the fans expected him would be important wasn't, itself, invented by the fans. The developers did more than make blithe and vague hints for the sake of stoking an obvious hype machine, but rather outright put the character front and center in marketing campaigns and (arguably) outright lied about what his role would be in the film for the sake of preserving the twist.

If Rey turns out to not be a Skywalker, more likely the portion of the fanbase that was die-hard following the Rey Skywalker theory will be disappointed, and the rest of the fanbase will move on with whatever the movies do decide to do, as she's a new character whose identity is literally being created in front of us and audience expect that to mean something fresh and unexpected.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:21:44 AM by KnownUnknown

Phantom Menace has more unique setpieces than Force Awakens. It's more inventive in terms of its worldbuilding, while The Force Awakens is more faithful to the OT as source material, and feels more of a piece with the original movies. These are, somehow, the strengths and weaknesses of each film, respectively. Trading too heavily on nostalgia with TFA, and not heavily enough in Ep I.

TFA has a very evocative beginning that I do think holds up, but Rey's truncated showdown with Kylo Ren is no Duel of the Fates. And Starkiller Base being the Ultra Mega Death Star Deluxe and mapping so exactly to the whole Death Star sabotage with each story beat (without even a proper Yavin IV denouement), that does still grate on me.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:51:31 AM by Unsung

On the other hand, TFA has one of my favorite villains in the entirety of Star Wars, Kylo Ren. Kinda makes me biased because I like the guy way too much.

... What does Reylo have to do with anything? And if (anti-)shipping is the main driving motive for why you want Reylo to be a Skywalker, then that's some truly bizarre priorities.

I agree with TFA being the Mystery Box. So many questions are left unanswered in TFA (eg. How is Rey so close to the Force? What are the exact details of her past? Who the hell is Snoke?) If this movie manages to answer the most important questions in a satisfiable way (i.e. makes sense), then TFA's some criticisms will be alleviated.

I myself liked TFA, although I do have some gripes with it (Resistance as the good faction name (this is insignificant, but still), Finn's character doesn't make too much sense, how the hell Rey knows hiw to pilot Millenium Falcon, weak OST etc.).

edited 20th Nov '17 2:09:18 AM by kaalban

My first desire is Rey being a Skywalker as that would be the natural choice and logical road for the ST.

The reason it's conflated with anti-Reylo is because most anti-Skywalker supporters tend to support the idea of the ST revolving around Rey and Kylo Ren. And given that a good portion of them are Reylo fans, it's hard not to associate anti-Rey Skywalker with Reylo. At least for me. I've recently made an account on the Jedi Council Forums in hopes of making a clear case for Rey Skywalker (by focusing on the overall concept of the ST), only to discover a good chunk of the members derailing the discussion by resisting the idea of Rey and Kylo Ren being cousins and then start talking about how Kylo Ren was going to be redeemed and that Rey will understand Kylo Ren. One of them left the forums, but not before revealing their true colors as a Reylo fan. It's Draco in Leather Pants at its worst.

Which is why I really, really want to see Reylo undergo Abandon Shipping and Ship Sinking when TLJ arrives.

edited 20th Nov '17 4:11:22 AM by Shadao

Remember, TFA has a 92% critic rating and an 89% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes. People that straight-up hate it are a very Vocal Minority.

Another teaser with some interesting implications (unless it's deceptive).

Were those Loth Cats?

Anywho, looks like Snoke's going to be making Rey's life hell even when they're not in direct contact.

"Permission to get in an X-Wing and blow something up?"

The internet tends to amplify negative voices. A reason I no longer spend a lot of time in dedicated Star Wars discussion groups is because if you were to just go by them, everyone hates the new continuity and wants the EU to desperately return because it's clearly superior, when in reality most people watching the movies at this point probably don't give two shits about any of that.

I still haven't decided which Star Wars continuity I prefer myself.

That shot of Rey rising her lightsaber is driving me nuts, because I saw someone show the clip in reverse, showing how much natural it looks. She's actually putting down her lightsaber in the clip, whatever the implication of that maybe. I also really want to know what she's fighting against in the first teaser.

I love TFA. I wouldn't say it's my favorite exactly. I don't even think it's too similar to ANH (besides the third deathstar...but it was still kinda cool), and I think the TLJ will put it in a new context that makes it even more different. I've thought way too much about how I think this trilogy will be going different places thematically. In the OT, the idea was they had to get back to the old ways to return order. I think the theme of TLJ is going to be a bit more punk rock than that. They're going to have to break old traditions and find a new way, which is infinitely more messy and scary.

I didn't even mind Starkiller Base. It's actually a fusion of the Death Star and two Legends superweapons, namely the Star Forge (power source) and Galaxy Gun (firing method).

My problem with it is more to do with how it's framed, as a bigger, badder Death Star, rather than how it functions. Honestly, if it had just been the Galaxy Gun, straight up, I probably would've nerded the hell out over the reference.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:16:36 PM by Unsung

Yeah, I'll admit I could've gone without the "It's bigger than the Death Star! Oh noes!" scene.

The fact that it destroyed whole planets and is the size of a planet is a really cool; it's the framing that makes it a little to ANH-y for me. It made a good setting for the lightsaber duel though, which yeah is brief, but I think it's gorgeous and badass. I can't wait to see more lightsaber duels. The fight between Finn and Captain Phasma looks like it will be incredible too.

Starkiller Base had a lot more potential than "planet-killer with hyperspace lasers"; even its design suggests a rich history, a once-florid world drowned in endless nuclear winter. It's a shame we never got anything out of it.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:24:35 PM by EndlessSea

Nothing really bothers me about TFA. The wonderful characters were enough for me, which is really rare for film. I couldn't care less about the movie taking story beats from ANH (and I love ANH), mostly because it was so obviously intentional. I mean, the movie is a love letter, not a ripoff.

The Starkiller isn't really a problem for me either considering that wasn't really the emotional climax of the film. It's just more screentime of the effortlessly awesome Poe Dameron for me.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:33:10 PM by deuteragonist