Unclear Description: Fox Hunting

It's not clear exactly what this is supposed to be. The description seems to just assume everyone knows what the trope is. But what is it, exactly? Is it limited to just hunting foxes? Can bigger game be involved, and is this only about the noble passtime, or does peasants hunting for food count?

I've got a YKTTW called The Grand Hunt that I'm going to launch today or tomorrow; I think folding this trope into that one would be the simplest solution.

I agree, this could be more fleshed out as a trope. Right now its about half a Useful Note.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I'd vote for updating it with more info on fox hunting, and turning into a proper Useful Note.

Unclear description? Fox hunting. The hunting of foxes. Couldn't be more clear. See The Other Wiki here.

Several small points:

I think a picture would help, with people on horseback in the kit (red jackets for men, black for women, the hats and all that).

Perhaps more explicit description of the attendant social ceremony (I think the silver cups for potent potables are called "stirrup cups" but I'll have to check that). Also the demonstration of horsemanship is part of the social display.

Possibly play up the sympathy for the fox part. That may even be part of the reason it fell out of favour and was outlawed, and I'm pretty sure it factors in some depictions of this (didn't Disney do a buddy film about a dog and a fox, where this inevitably comes up?).

Trivia bit, or Real Life example: I recall reading an interview with the actor Jeremy Brett, who came from a gentry family, describing his participation in fox hunts and being "blooded" (which, if memory serves, involved having the bloody stump of the fox's tail rubbed in his face at the end of his first hunt).

I'm cool with keeping this info, even as a Useful Notes page. The fictional examples could go under The Grand Hunt, or we could hyperlink the two. We probably should have a redirect anyway if we make Fox Hunting a Useful Notes page.

edited 13th Aug '15 3:05:29 AM by 69BookWorM69

"These people are hunting foxes" adds to the story like "these people sit in armchairs". The meaning is missing.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Fox hunting is and always has been a sport of the uppercrust English and no one else. Having a fox hunt establishes a mood and social setting.

My point is that the mood and social setting is missing from the page. That meaning is not there. So fix it. If you can. It would mean rewriting the definition, which is "this is a thing that fiction borrows from real life, like armchairs". The example I used can be connected to the tradition of parlour conversations with cigars and sherry after dinner. But the meaning was missing.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Ok then, fix it.

I can't. I don't know how to explain the mood or social setting. There's nothing I can rescue.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

It evokes a mood of wealth and privilege, and a social setting of the English uppercrust and nobility. And probably a time and place of before World War II—does anybody go on fox hunts anymore, even the superrich?

Out of all possible hunts, are fox hunts the only way to do this? Do Stag hunts, falconry, or boar hunts count?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

We should probably just merge them into a trope called Nobles Like To Hunt unless the separate animals have specific traits associated with them.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?

Yeah, I think just fleshing out the description and talk about how it's quintessentially British and upper-class. I'll take a crack at it in a bit.

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Fox-hunting has a specific 'layout' to it compared to other animal hunts because of the history of how it evolved into its current form. It initially began as a way of replacing deer-hunting because the deer stock became too low, but the entire idea of cross-country hunting in flashy jackets with hoardes of dog is a modern invention that arose out of fox-hunting specifically. Fox-hunting is also as much a networking event as anything else - it's how the rich grease the wheels of those social groups that also overlap in terms of business.

So, yes, there is something of a difference between fox-hunting and other forms of hunting. Where similarities do occur it's because the modern style of fox-hunting has influenced other kinds of hunts.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Not the historical similarities; we need to know the narrative similarities. The difference between the hunting in narrative works, not in Real Life.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

My point is, it shows up exclusively for rich bluebloods going for a hunt. It's not the same as Manly Men Can Hunt (which is about hunting being manly) or Great White Hunter (which is about big game hunting in foreign lands). It's about a certain type of hunting being used as a shorthand for someone being rich and wealthy.

Hell, even The Transformers had a character who went "turbo-fox hunting" and surprise surprise, he was portrayed as being upper-class and distant from the commoners he works with.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Sorry, yes. The point of my post is what Larkman said. Fox-hunting is a very specific style of hunt, and when stories use that kind of style it's been inspired by a single real life source (fox hunting). Stories that create period settings, might also depict mediaeval hunts along the same structure as modern fox-hunting, even though that structure did not exist back then for any kind of hunting. However, those types of stories are the same as all the others in one key aspect: it's about the wealthy and (importantly) powerful of society. The major departure between storytelling and real life is that narrative will usually associate fox-hunters with bluebloods which isn't the case in real life (old money and new money in real life).

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Then we want a "nobility hunts" trope, not "people chase foxes" trope.

Why is this distinction important? See Mary Poppins; the fox hunt is not present to show how noble the characters are, it's to show the protagonists are good people and they defy the traditions of nobility to rescue the fox.

In contrast, To the Manor Born has an episode where a fox hunt is organized, but never actually takes place (and the events happen offscreen). That would count for a "nobles hunt" trope, because it's all about a Nouveau Riche character learning to fit into an old money town. It wouldn't count as "people chase foxes" because there weren't any foxes.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I think we also need a Rescue The Hunted trope. It's a common trope that someone will rescue the target of a hunt, be it a fox or a deer, or what have you to show that they are a good a noble person.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Bump: is it crowner time?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

I'd say this should be retooled and broadened into a "Nobleman Hunting Party" trope. Hunting for sport (rather than for food) has pretty much always been a pastime of the aristocracy, as it requires a lot of expensive equipment and highly-paid experts to be successful (not to mention the leisure time to go tromping around in the woods for the hell of it).

Though really, at that point it's basically an entirely different trope. I'm not sure what the value is of doing a trope transplant for Fox Hunting rather than just cutlisting it and YKTTWing the new one.

edited 15th Dec '15 5:14:07 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Don't forget we launched The Grand Hunt, which covers most aspects of "nobleman's hunting party." We probably need more hunting tropes in general, but I don't think fox hunting is one of them.

Huh, so it does. Then yeah, I'd say expand The Grand Hunt to include hunting that still shows off the hunter's wealth and privilege without actually including a hunting party of dozens and dozens of people, and then merge Fox Hunting into it. I'd also say that The Grand Hunt should include some mention of falconry (hunting by means of a trained Noble Bird of Prey), too.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Perhaps Fox Hunting is something like a sub trope.

My tropes launched: https://surenity2.blogspot.com/2021/02/my-tropes-on-tv-tropes.html