Jupiterian Local
So we're arguing about the definition of what we think other tropes should be again. I reiterate: whatever, it's not worth the headache.
If we get rid of Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors, Tactical Rock–Paper–Scissors (because the exact same objection applies there, as well), and Boom, Headshot!, then are you satisfied?
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
I don't think we need to get rid of them, they just need to be fixed to fill the hole we are using them for.
My attempt to bump Boom, Headshot! has failed even though the Crowner to split has finished with a yes.
And we are talking about Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors on trope talk for a repairshop, which can't be made right now.
We can just go ahead now I guess?
edited 17th Dec '15 11:13:31 PM by Memers
The Unknown
Something needs to be done. I don't want an extremely important trope thrown to the wayside when 2016 comes around.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Jupiterian Local
Proposal on the table is still this:
- Extra Effective Attack: An attack that's more effective than normal.
- Attack Its Weak Point: Attacks do Scratch Damage unless you hit a specific vulnerable point.
- Boom, Headshot!: A shot to the head is more effective than hits that land elsewhere.
- Critical Hit: A mechanic for normal attacks that deal more damage, or have additional effects, when certain conditions are met.
- Random Critical Hit: A Critical Hit that has a random chance of occurring every time you attack.
- Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors: Hitting a target's elemental weakness does more damage than otherwise.
- Tactical Rock–Paper–Scissors: Specific types of weapons or units are more effective against another type.
- Weapon of X-Slaying: Weapons that are extra-effective against a specific type of enemy.
- Attack Its Weak Point: Attacks do Scratch Damage unless you hit a specific vulnerable point.
Memers' objection to this is that a couple of the tropes on that list (Boom, Headshot! and Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors) have issues of their own and either have current TRS threads or need one. My thought is that we should go based on the current definitions of the tropes and if they're changed later, then those threads can deal with fixing whether they still belong here.
We're pretty much waiting for someone else to chime in either way, but I'd rather just drop the contested tropes from the proposal than let it stall us indefinitely.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
The Unknown
Attack Its Weak Point has a couple more subtropes like In Case of Boss Fight, Break Glass, but otherwise I'm good with the proposal so something gets done.
edited 30th Dec '15 4:31:08 PM by Karxrida
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
Go for the Eye also looks like a subtrope of Attack Its Weak Point.
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
Jupiterian Local
I reread through the thread and realized that we never actually came up with sandboxes for any of the changes we're proposing. This has now been rectified:
Sandbox.Extra Effective Attack
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Tyrannoraptoran Reptiliomorph
Is it okay if I add some subtropes to the list on Sandbox.Extra Effective Attack?
edited 31st Dec '15 4:43:15 PM by Lymantria
Join the Five-Man Band cleanup project!
The Unknown
Go ahead.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
The Unknown
Sandbox looks pretty good. Are we missing any tropes?
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
The Unknown
I refuse to have us forget about this just because the Purge happened. We're going to get shit done.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Jupiterian Local
Bump. We've got sandboxes up for the proposed descriptions of the tropes we've been talking about. Anyone have any thoughts on those? Changes they want to make? Should we start sorting examples?
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Jupiterian Local
Bump again. I can start sorting examples from the current live Critical Hit page between Sandbox.Critical Hit and Sandbox.Random Critical Hit, but I'd rather make sure we have the definitions nailed down first.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Jupiterian Local
Sorted the examples in Sandbox.Critical Hit. I kept almost all the examples, but focused the description on the effects a crit had and the method for generating one (Random Critical Hit, Attack Its Weak Point, Action Commands, etc). When I go through and do Sandbox.Random Critical Hit, I'll focus on the actual randomness (truly random, based on Luck Stat, etc).
I also ended up sorting the enormous generic Video Games folder into separate folders for RPGs, Shooters, Strategy Games, and Everything Else.
edited 25th Feb '16 12:06:16 PM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Jupiterian Local
So hey, this is still a thing!
I went through and updated Sandbox.Critical Hit with all the updates that had been made to Main.Critical Hit in the meantime, as well as sorted Sandbox.Random Critical Hit's examples and edited them to be appropriate to that page.
If that works for everyone, then we just need to launch the pages and check wicks.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
question, with the sandboxes the way they are, there is low to no difference between general Critical Hit and Extra Effective Attack.
CH is written in prose, but blue links to all the subtropes in one paragraph that EEA lists out in bullet form.
If anything, why not combine both into EEA, and then just have Random Crit as a subtrope, so that there's no confusion that that's still going to be solely about randomness from now on.
Jupiterian Local
Critical Hit is a subtrope of Extra Effective Attack. EEA is any instance of an attack that's more effective than normal for any reason, while CH is a specific mechanic for a normal attack being extra effective under certain circumstances.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
You realize that 'any reason' and 'certain circumstances' mean the same thing in this case.
The first line of the trope description in extra effective even uses the term 'certain circumstances'
I'm saying that as written there is no difference between the sandboxes for Critical Hit and Extra Effective.
Extra Effective should be the supertrope, Critical Hit should go away, and Random Critical Hit should be the subtrope.
edited 21st Jun '16 7:38:40 AM by acrobox
Jupiterian Local
An EEA is when an attack gets a bonus for any reason. A Critical Hit is when an attack gets a bonus for a specific reason, as defined by the game.
Simple example: Pokemon has both critical hits, which happen randomly, and "super effective" attacks, which happen consistently based on pokemon and move types. Both are an Extra Effective Attack, but one is a Critical Hit while the other is Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors.
Critical Hit is a pre-existing term, not something we here at TV Tropes came up with. It's such an ingrained thing that we absolutely need a separate trope page for Critical Hit by itself. We can't just roll it in with another, broader article.
edited 21st Jun '16 7:36:16 AM by NativeJovian
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
If the specific reason for Critical Hit is randomness, then ax Random Crit and put that description into Critical Hit.
I'm saying that if you have Extra Effective, Critical, and Random Crit, one of those is redundant.
Based solely on how the sandboxes are worded now (not meaning or examples or whether or not TV tropes invents terms or uses preexisting terms), Extra Effective and Critical are the same.
edited 21st Jun '16 7:43:06 AM by acrobox
Jupiterian Local
If the specific reason is randomness, then it's a Random Critical Hit, which is a subtrope. But if it's not randomness, then it's still a Critical Hit.
- Extra Effective Attack: attack is extra effective for any reason.
- Various subtropes: attack is extra effective for various specific reasons.
- Critical Hit: attack is extra effective for reasons defined by the game's rules, which may or may not also fit the definition of the various other subtropes.
- Random Critical Hit: attack is extra effective based on random chance.
I'm not sure how else to make it clear.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
- Various subtropes: attack is extra effective for various specific reasons.
- Critical Hit: attack is extra effective for reasons defined by the game's rules, which may or may not also fit the definition of the various other subtropes.
which is the same as saying
- Supertrope: Any reason (list of subtropes)
- Subtrope: A defined reason (read:reason) that may or may not (read:any reason) be covered by a subtrope.
is this not a problem?
Please read the text of the sandboxes.
Extra Effective is essentially:
Attack does more damage than a normal attack would for any reason. May take the form of these subtropes
- X
- Y
- Z
Critical Hit is essentially:
Attack does more damage than a normal attack would for a specific reason defined by rules like X, or Y, or maybe even Z.
If any reason can be the specific reason, then the specific reasons become any reason.
Please someone else weigh in on this.
edited 21st Jun '16 8:14:10 AM by acrobox
or you're saying that Extra Effective happens for reasons not defined by the games rules. Which is either impossible, since everything that happens is defined by the games rules, or means randomness. In which case Crit is the supertrope, Extra Effective and Random Crit are redundant.
You can't have all three. Only two.
edited 21st Jun '16 8:18:42 AM by acrobox
The big thing I think he is getting at is x Critical Hit is called a Critical Hit. Games call different things a 'Critical Hit' but only one thing gets called that or if there are more ways to produce a 'Critcal Hit' they never stack unless you are playing an ancient table top game.
An EEA can stack, and depending on the type, can Critical Hit or cause a status effect which a general Critical Hit does not usually do.
Yes it's about elemental relationships. Basically stuff like
It does not cover the basic video game mechanic of the various stages of vulnerability of elements such as Absorb, Reflect, Scratch Damage, Strong (half damage), Weak (1.5x) very weak (2x), instant kill.
As well as the more general and arbitrary games which stick strengths and weaknesses seemingly at random, uses only those elements you have access to at that point in the game, have a Palette Swap that just has a different weakness than the last one etc.
By random I mean things like Persona 4 Golden's Hollow Forest dungeon has Palette Swapped monsters that are affected by every element in some way. Looking at one of the monsters it Reflects Physical, Nulls Ice and Dark, Strong vs Lightning and Fire, and Weak to Light and Ice. It's like they looked at the chart and just randomly assigned the stuff. Even your own characters get this like Chie ends up Null Ice, Weak Fire, Strong Lighting and Light, those last two make no sense.
Also I have ran across several games that have monsters weak to their own element, sometimes as a puzzle type thing where they want you to reflect it back to them while others just seem to be 'they will never try that' type of thing.
Basically it's the next thing I wanna TRS.
Edit: as Clarste put it in another thread Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissors is 'a target's affinity determines its strength and weakness'
edited 17th Dec '15 12:07:08 PM by Memers