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Needs Help: Muscles Are Meaningful get usage counts

 1 Indirect Active Transport, Wed, 2nd Apr '14 10:49:34 AM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Metalworking mage
Trope Decay here.

To say the least, the argument for the newer, inferior picture is that Venom and Spider-man better display the difference in muscle better than Rey Mysterio and The Great Khali. This is not a trope about muscles, not in any non superficial way. It is a trope about size and Great Khali being two heads taller than Rey Mysterio was a perfect indicator of what the trope is about, by its description.

So let's take this up by the root. The first problem is the name. It used to be called Prejudiced For Pecs. Since it is about favoring impressive looking muscle groups that had little functional use for wrestling, that was a better name. That part about the giant being mostly fat was unneeded with the old name and the paranthesis miss the point. It does not matter if the giant is mostly fat, is bigger and thus no one will have trouble buying him as strong. Since there is no laconic, maybe people got confused? Perhaps this thing needs to be sent into You Know That Thing Where for a proper launch but at the very least it needs its name changed, to one at least as good as its original.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
 2 Larkmarn, Wed, 2nd Apr '14 7:48:04 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
Well, I'll say this... the new image is very weak.

Venom is ridiculously overmuscled but... not doing anything with them. Not all that meaningful.

 3 lu 127, Sat, 3rd May '14 2:31:54 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Tick-tock.
迷子の足音消えた 代わりに祈りの唄
 4 Larkmarn, Mon, 5th May '14 6:40:24 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I think the only real thing to do is make a new YKTTW for that intended trope, as Muscles Are Meaningful as it's currently defined is clearly pretty firmly established.

... and again, we should pull the pic because it's utterly non-indicative, what with not showing the "meaningful" part at all.

 5 Indirect Active Transport, Sat, 10th May '14 10:58:42 AM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Metalworking mage
clearly pretty firmly established.
The majority of the page examples are predominately about general size. Not just muscle but height, weight and in one case, width. The page description makes it pretty clear it is not just about muscles either, but about a perception of strength.

Misuses crosswicks seems to exist entirely because the last repair shop thread changed the name without considering what was actually on the page. People think Muscles Are Meaningless Inverted Trope and I don't blame them. I sort of do the image pickin thread, because the whole thing was written based on the title rather than the content but I am confident this "establishment" can be toppled the same was set up. With a name change.

I agree it should probably go through You Know That Thing Where anyway. I don't agree that "Muscles Are Meaningful" should be allowed to have any continued form of existence. That's just real life, muscles generally indicate strength. When the wrong muscles are used to indicate strength, when supernatural forces are in play that should make body types irrelevant, when 'large' characters have a curious lack of dexterity-quickness-intelligence, when the characters overall size changes based on what role he's playing in any given story, when the larger guys are pushed without development or despite a noticeable lack of talent, then we see the ground work for a separate page. Otherwise it's just an inversion, subversion, aversion of zig zag, defiance ect of the previously established page covers just fine.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
 6 Willbyr, Tue, 10th Jun '14 5:58:24 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock is set.
Blapper of Water
I'm a bit confused as to what the trope means according to the OP. Muscles Are Meaningful says "Polar opposite of Muscles Are Meaningless, " which has been there since the name change in 2011.

 8 Cider, Wed, 18th Jun '14 6:59:12 PM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
Yeah, the name change was made without understanding what the trope was actually about.

Muscles Are Meaningful: That's not really a trope. That's realism.

Muscles being shown to be more important than they are in real life or should be given the existence of superpowers and such? That's trope.

Change it back to Prejudiced For Pecs.

edited 18th Jun '14 6:59:25 PM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
 9 Indirect Active Transport, Sat, 28th Jun '14 8:05:36 AM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Metalworking mage
Uh, anyone else have a protest? Anyone else support me?
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
Adding a protest. I don't think that Prejudiced For Pecs is a better name. What's more, I don't think the connection to Muscles Are Meaningless is a bad thing at all: it describes a different trope.

I could support a namechange to Mass Is Meaningful, but not back to Prejudiced For Pecs, because that sounds more like women gushing about bodybuilders than a trope that depends on the same perceptions as Muscles Are Meaningless.
Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 11 Indirect Active Transport, Sun, 29th Jun '14 11:32:01 PM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Metalworking mage
It doesn't just mean strength but also the large people not being agile, fast or stealthy...okay, the latter actually does make sense but otherwise cardio is a bigger problem for than speed or dexterity, unless you're specifically talking about being too heavy to stand on something or are trying to align something very tiny.

It is not just advantages of being big but also what comes with being small. Muscles Are Meaingless is all about strength. The problem with linking them together is that it implies this trope is a lot narrower than it is. The line to contrast them can stay on the description, I suppose, but the Snow Clone title has to go, they not direct equivalents. What works about Prejudice For Pecs is the implication of looking at large muscle without giving much thought to them. Women gushing about body builders is a good analogy because many body builders got pushed over professional wrestlers better than them in every aspect except for how nice they looked posing for a camera.

If the wrestling analogy is too hard for you to grasp, then take the Comic Book one. Mxyzptlk is an example of Muscles Are Meaningless. He's stronger than Superman, he's stronger than Doomsday. But Doomsday is drawn larger because he fights Superman with strength. He honestly doesn't have to be drawn large, he's not a human so muscles mean nothing here but the idea is people wouldn't take him brawling with a large man if he wasn't. Mxyzptlk is drawn small because he doesn't beat Superman with strength, he plays mind games with him. These two tropes do not have the relationship their titles suggest. I wouldn't even mind a Snow Clone title, if it was to another trope that is a direct equivalent to this one.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
You didn't address what I said, and now you're trying to say this trope is averting Acro Fatic without mentioning that trope by name.... yeah....

This is not a sexual attraction trope. That's what "women gushing over bodybuilders" is. Not "pecs make you stronger". That's the narrow meaning of the old name.

I'm sorry, I'm getting frustrated by other posters... here's a list of my points:
  1. the two tropes play off the opposite ends of the same perception. Like you said with Mr. mxy (small) and Darkseid (large).
  2. the old name sounds like a sexual attraction trope.
  3. I'd support a name change only if the name was already known, not a generic call for rename.

edited 30th Jun '14 4:00:54 AM by crazysamaritan

Still new. Still learning. Asking questions and making mistakes.
 13 Indirect Active Transport, Mon, 30th Jun '14 1:24:54 PM from Chicago Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
Metalworking mage
Said nothing about acrofatic, nor was that even on my mind. The trope on my mind is The Giant, that's the trope, if any, that is directly related to this one, not muscles are meaningless, that's how the page was written up prior to its "repair".

The Giant is big with an overly simplistic move set who doesn't move much and can't be moved around. Some display less in some areas than others but they all share those three points.

Prejudiced For Pecs is the belief big guys should be simplistic and immovable, combined with appearances that look strong and slow, regardless of the accuracy or relevance of that assumption. If you must know why it is wrong, shot putters tend to be bigger and slower than sprinters but sprinters tend to be bigger and faster than distance runners. Sprinters are often smaller, faster and stronger than body builders, who still tend to be stronger than distance guys. You know, it is not super complex, it just tends toward what you are doing or training to do.

And if you want to say contrast with Muscles Are Meaningless, fine. I've already shown why they are not directly related but neither are Acrofatic, Stout Strength, ect. The difference there is that those titles are not Snow Clones, so no one assumes they are directly related enough to get stuff like this page image. Venom isn't such a good example not only because he swigs around on a web line but those who know him know whatever edge Spider-man has on him in agility is more than made up for by Venom's shape changing abilities and that the slimmer Carnage is stronger than both of them. (badbadbad, the entire argument against it was him not being muscular enough, which isn't even the main point)

I may not have accurately addressed your protestation but I don't see how prejudice for pecs implies sex. To me implies it means they prefer the brawlers to have large pectoral muscles. So how about that? Pecs Mean Strength? Power Is In The Pecs? Immovable Pecs?(my personal favorite, since implies the big guys are both unstoppable and unable to get started)

edited 30th Jun '14 1:27:27 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
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Total posts: 13
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