Ambiguous Name: The Eternal Churchill

The article seems to imply that this article is about "Species-wide Last Stand", despite the fact that "The..." and a person's name is usually reserved for character names. Anyone else want a rename for this?

Given the inbounds, I'll need a much better reason to rename.

The inbounds are good, but the wicks are horrible. I mean, this trope may not exactly be super common, but it should get more use than that.

The name does seem logical, it's about Winston Churchill as a leader archetype and that sort of archetype is about rousing speeches to get the people to make a last stand against the opposition. Logic aside though, it's non-descriptive and the "eternal" part is a bit confusing if you don't know it means "there's this sort of leader in every species" as if it was a subtrope of We Have Those, Too. I'm wondering, are we getting inbounds due to people looking for the trope or looking for "Churchill as hero"? Probably doesn't matter, that's still a lot of inbounds to break.

edited 12th Jan '14 10:18:51 AM by treelo

The problem is that it's not about a Winston Churchill archetype: it's about a species-wide Last Stand, hence why I think it should be redefined and/or given a Trope Transplant.

I'm just following the thought path I felt the writer was taking, I personally never thought it was about an archetype and would prefer a different name entirely.

If I encountered an example of this i'd have a lot of difficulty in potholing to it because the name is completely non-indicative (churchill is decent, but then you'd need to be aware of the guy and how he contributed to history). If I Guess That Trope Definition for one, i'd have no idea what it means since i'm not familiar with Winston Churchill. not a History buff.

What? As far as historical figures are, Churchill and his contributions to the Allied cause in World War II are pretty well known...

What? As far as historical figures are, Churchill and his contributions to the Allied cause in World War II are pretty well known...

For starters, naming a trope after a person brings to mind a character type, not a war scenario.

For another, Churchill is known for all sorts of things, none of which have to do with a last stand of humanity against non-human invaders.

edited 13th Jan '14 11:59:50 AM by Catbert

Yes, but he's most well known for rallying the Allies to fight the Nazis during World War II. "We will fight on the beaches", anyone? This trope seems to be more of a "Fantastic Churchill", rallying humanity to make its last stand in a manner analogous to Churchill in World War II.

edited 13th Jan '14 3:30:08 PM by SantosLHalper

What Catbert said.

again, you'd gonna have to be a history buff to know all those. if you have zero care about history (or at least, just WWII you wouldn't know it.

It's Trope Namer Syndrome. if this place was however called World War Tropes— a catalogue of tropes that happened in the two world wars— however, then it wouldn't be out of place.

edited 13th Jan '14 7:11:14 PM by ShanghaiSlave

I think Catbert's reasons show why this needs a rename. Humanity Shall Never Surrender would keep the Churchill reference, but that doesn't seem significant enough. Humanity Is Defiant would more closely match the names of other tropes about the defining characteristics of humans.

I'm mildly leery of this thing's tropability. I might need some time to fully explicate my reasons, though.

We shall not surrender this thread to the depths of the morgue, or at least we'll try not to. Clocking due to inactivity.

I reject the notion suggested above that Winston Churchill is obscure or one has to be a "history buff" to know about him. It's Winston Churchill. Anyone who learned about World War II in high school history class should recognize that name.

I do however agree that this is a bad name, a non-indicative name, as the connection between Winston Churchill and aliens is not immediately obvious.

So it definitely needs a rename. Actually I tend to agree with @Leaper above who wonders if this is tropeable at all. The trope here is—what? A leader who fights off alien invasions? Don't we have tropes enough relating to heroism and leadership? The Determinator, Rousing Speech, etc. Nor is it clear by the trope description what this is supposed to apply to—the speech, the leader, the refusal of humanity to surrender? Not tropeable, bad description, bad name.

edited 16th Feb '14 10:40:46 AM by gallium

So are we ready for a single prop crowner on renaming this, or do people think that there are other issues/options that need to be addressed in a crowner?

edited 18th Feb '14 10:27:26 AM by Catbert

It would seem there are two issues at hand, 1) if this is even a trope at all, and 2) the name.

Well, given that this is about a species-wide Last Stand, I'd think that qualifies as The Same But More Specific, and thus should be cut. I don't see enough distinction from Last Stand to make it a subtrope

edited 19th Feb '14 5:24:50 PM by tryrar

I agree.

Vote to merge into Last Stand.

or merge into Last Stand. That works too

Doublepost to put in a crowner with the three viable options we have here(feel free to modify if you need)

Crowner's hooked.

@Gallium: that's exactly what I've been trying to say.

I myself like to think of this trope as "A leader who rallies humanity to fight against an alien/supernatural force": basically, a Winston Churchill expy. Maybe Fantastic Churchill?

welp, merge is top pick by a mile. Hollering the mods