The Matrix

So I noticed that one complaint that some people have of the series (like Doug Walker) is that they feel that the dialogue is pretentious. What say you (I gotta say, him saying that Inception was The Matrix with less pretentiousness kind of baffled me, as I find that film to be more pretentious in terms of dialogue)?

edited 19th Jun '14 11:06:05 PM by LDragon2

Never really felt it.

Decided to revisit this thread.

It seems that this film has gotten a bit of backlash in recent years, with some proclaiming Dark City to be everything that this movie wanted to be. What say you?

While I love Dark City (third favorite film of this sort of Platonic Cave story), I still consider The Matrix better. Mainly because I feel that it has much more in terms of themes and philosophy, and is overall just more fun to watch. That, and it feels more unique, what with it taking elements from anime, religion, philosophy, and literature, and creating something fresh out of it. Dark City doesn't feel as memorable or interesting, even though it is a quality film.

I liked all of the Matrix movies a lot more than Dark City; it was okay but didn't grip me in nearly the same way. Put it this way - I can still vividly remember almost every experience of seeing the first Matrix in the theater, right down to the ASMR effect of Smith opening the folder in the interrogation room. Until I saw this post, I'd forgotten that I'd rented Dark City nearly a decade or more ago.

The comparison I usually make is to The Thirteenth Floor. At any rate, I still prefer The Matrix, for three general reasons: the worldbuilding is more elaborate; the man/machine conflict is possibly the first cinematic instance of a robot war wherein Both Sides Have a Point and the endgame is lasting peace rather than just smashing all the bots; and the self-enhancement through computer programming and metaphysical understanding is among the more creative and consistent ways to provide characters with superpowers in order to facilitate cool fight scenes. The Buddhist undertones of escaping vicious cycles, and saving oneself without help (as the Kid was noted to have accomplished) were also a nice touch in contrast to the usual religious themes found in science fiction.

I wouldn't mind seeing a sequel series dealing with a post-Neo cold war or somesuch, like in The Matrix Online. Both Dark City and The Thirteenth Floor were great "big idea" films, but the settings couldn't carry much more than one story each. As The Animatrix has demonstrated, however, there's quite a lot of ways its particular virtual world could be further explored.

edited 27th Jul '15 12:09:02 PM by indiana404

"So I noticed that one complaint that some people have of the series (like Doug Walker) is that they feel that the dialogue is pretentious."

That have to be with two points: the first one is number of chararter who give you philosophies dialogues goes up:compare the first flim, who only have the Oracle and the smith with Morpheus with the second film in where there is Oracle again, them Smith, them merovingio, them architect, it dosent help the action stop somewhat each time this chararter speak

And the other reason...it have to be about what "pretensions" means, for most part it have to be that philosophy in general can be very boring unless you have and actual interest in the subject, also it dosent help that many times it done with long and heavy dialogue that break the rule of show`dont tell (even more for the audience who dosent care about it and come from other element they want to see) Also for many it feel "cheating" since is clear the movie is going to favour the good guy ideas.

If you think it well, the movies who uses philosophy or any idea well do with sublety, letting the audience guessing and thinking how each piece of the puzzle fix the general theme, otherwise it just feel preachy

...

I don't understand why anybody even cares about what Doug Walker has to say at this point. Like, it's not the early days of That Guy With The Glasses anymore, people. There are other, better reviewers and critics out there for people to listen, watch, etc.

Because his show is popular and people like to watch it.

Anyone complaining about what X Critic specifically has to say is doing so as a fan of X Critic who disagreed with a thing that critic said strongly enough to want to argue the point.

edited 20th Aug '15 8:00:00 AM by TobiasDrake

because he was voicing a comon critic of the movie, so is less "x cririx said this" and more "X crític said something about comon crítica" I just use him to said my opinión about

There's also the needless Biblical names being thrown at stuff. That's a lightning rod for accusations of being pretentious.

There's also the fact The Matrix is one of those fictions that is popular for being "smart." Think Metal Gear Solid 2. People like it and they write big posts and their own little essays about how genius it is. Other people see this and balk at it.

I have long believed that whole "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" idea applies to group ideas and popularity. If a bunch of people say "this is great!" they motivate another group to stand up and shout "THIS SUCKS!" And since Group B is almost always the minority, they see fit make their opinions known very bluntly and often.

In summary, popular things attract negativity. They turn what otherwise might have been mild dislike into foaming hatred. I believe this is the root of most hatedoms more than any legitimate critiques.

you know what my problem with The Matrix sequels is? Every new protagonist. I kinda don't give a shit about any of them. The young kid, the new pilot, the two ladies...they're all nothing to me. Whenever I watch Reloaded or Revolutions I skip their parts.

I d kind of wish Trinity had done more in the sequels. I know that is one of the many common complaints about them. Trinity is a total badass and very helpful in 1but in the sequels she mainly functions as Neo's love interest and nothing else.

Yeah, Trinity was wasted in the sequels. :/

What sequels?

Although in all seriousness, Neo's Character Arc was problematic. He goes from being the Naieve Newcomer to the Chosen One to the Messianic Archetype in one movie.

There's a reason why the hero's death and resurrection tends to come near the end of the story; it's because he has overcome the ultimate challenge and has become effectively immortal. Neo spends two movies being both a Boring Invincible Hero and largely unimportant overall.

Plenty of words have already been used criticizing the sequels, so I won't rehash them again.

I don't mind Neo being invincible. The chateau fight is my favorite fight in the trilogy.

To each his own, I suppose. It's not that the fights weren't well choreographed. My problem with that fight or really any fight involving Neo is that it doesn't feel like there's anything important at stake and the fight itself doesn't substantially advance the plot. It just feels like a fight scene for the sake of having one.

I'm also fine with Neo's invincibility in the sequels. I get the sense his conflict in the sequels is more of a philosophical one than a physical one.

And that would have been fine, except that for all the philosophical blathering, Neo never actually encountered and overcame an obstacle, or had to make a choice with any significant effects.

Consider the "two doors" problem The Architect gave him. The only reason Trinity was in danger was because she was being chased by an Agent, which the machines could have called off at any time.

And The Architect also lied about what would happen if Neo chose to save Trinity instead of the Blue Pills. He said that The Matrix would suffer a cataclysmic system crash and kill everybody connected to it if Neo chose to save Trinity. But that's not what happened.

Besides, if the whole point was to get Neo to meet The Architect, why try to thwart him at every turn?

You know, considering how Neo's arc was basically completed in the first film, there was no need at all to make a sequel, or at least one with him as the main protagonist. Same thing goes with Agent Smith. He was definitively killed off at the end of the first film, so bringing him back really negates the triumphant feeling that the first movie ended on.

In addition, I really found it disappointing how they didn't do anything creative with Neo's powers as The One. I was hoping for him to continue to develop his powers and learn new ones over the course of the series. Instead, all he can do is fly, stop bullets, and have enhanced Kung-Fu techniques. Boooooring.

I think there was a post in The Matrix Headscratchers or something that suggested that simply making the Merovingian's men more tricky to fight could've worked, or make him fight the Twins, who can phase through Kung-Fu, so he would either have to get smart or use the same power to fight them.

That, or you could make him fight a Mecha-Smith.

"here was no need at all to make a sequel, or at least one with him as the main protagonist. Same thing goes with Agent Smith. He was definitively killed off at the end of the first film, so bringing him back really negates the triumphant feeling that the first movie ended on."

But doing another movie without him will make the movie pointless "what another movie...yeah...but not with Neo he is....shut up" also Smith become something else and I consider him the best actor in the whole thing.

A thing with fight is that the more power you throw, it will become more of a superhero-esque movie, they want to kept in the original tone...which fails a little with the chosen one in your arsenal.

"you know what my problem with The Matrix sequels is? Every new protagonist. I kinda don't give a shit about any of them. The young kid, the new pilot, the two ladies...they're all nothing to me. Whenever I watch Reloaded or Revolutions I skip their parts."

Another problem is aside from Cypher and Morpheus, any other human chararter barely count, is telling something went AI can have more personality, neither trinity or Neo are engaging, just....boring overall

I actually found Neo to be an engaging protagonist in the first film. His reactions and decisions throughout the film gave me the feeling that he was more than just a blank slate. He started off as someone wanting to do more in his life than just be an office worker, then became someone who doubted that he was truly The One, showcased a sense of selflessness, and ultimately became the hero he was destined to be.

Heck, even though a lot of people criticize Keanu Reeves's performance as being dull, I didn't feel that from the first film, since it really looked like he was actually emoting in several scenes. Be it his panic and exasperation during his attempted escape from work, his confident smirk when he was training with Morpheus, his skittishness when meeting The Oracle, and his fierce determination when fighting Agent Smith. In other words, I totally bought him as a compelling character, and Reeves has a lot to do with that.

And then they undid all that for the sequels, turning him into an emotionless robot. Just because he's now The One doesn't mean he has to be emotionless you know.

It really doesn't help that a few of the new characters were given character development...in a "just okay" video game. It was an interesting experiment, and it might have worked if the game was looking at stuff the movies didn't really cover, instead of the game actually dealing with stuff that should have actually been at least mentioned in the movies.

That's a huge problem I have with Enter the Matrix. They cut out the power plant sequence from the movie just so one could play through it in a really sub-par video game. Again, if you need supplementary material in order to fully explain your movie, you are failing as a filmmaker.

At least The Matrix: Path of Neo was pretty good.

edited 7th Sep '15 7:43:21 PM by LDragon2

Neo devolptment in the first one is....okay, most likey because he is a confused as the audience in the first part and getting all the answer by morpheus.

Also the first one have a more quiet pacing, while the second one feel like "having a philosophie chat? good now STAR SHOOTING!" like the chararter ping pong all over the place