Complaining: Straw Nihilist

The following is copied from a section of my thread, "Philosophy is Not Bad", the rest of which can be found here:

"In the Straw Nihilist page, and in many pages linking to it, it his heavily implied that all nihilists are evil or morally questionable. I disagree. While nihilism, of any type, is fundamentally dark, it is not inherently evil. Just because a person believes that nothing has any objective purpose or value, does not mean that they will go out of their way to murder everyone on the planet. Personally, I (in addition to some friends) would prefer to just leave everyone alone, and not impose my own subjective goals on everybody. Not all nihilists are sociopaths. In fact, the vast majority are not."

My proposals for this are as follows:

• Make it clear that Tropes Are Not Bad.
• Emphasize that Dark Is Not Evil.
• Possibly pitch a YKTTW for a new page, entitled "Neutral Nihilist", to differentiate it from both "Straw Nihilist" and "Anti-Nihilist".

Also, from earlier in my thread:

"The fact that there is only one true nihilistic trope makes it so that any nihilistic character, no matter how different they are, is immediately thrown into Straw Nihilist. There are many different forms of nihilism, and to throw everyone into a single category is unfair. For convenience, I will list these types. They are metaphysical nihilism, epistemological nihilism, mereological nihilism, existential nihilism, moral nihilism, and political nihilism."

My proposals for this segment:

• Make separate tropes other types of nihilism, because the Straw Nihilist page really only focuses on existential nihilism.
• Make a "Useful Notes" page for a general explanation of nihilism and its types.

edited 26th Feb '13 12:35:14 PM by SpaceWolf

Holy chicken, we renamed "Nietzsche Wannabe"? Awesome! My faith in the repair process is again renewed!

The page is not about nihilism. It is about one particular portrayal of nihilism. By calling it "Straw Nihilist," the page overtly explains that this portrayal does not accurately or completely represent real nihilists.

Nihilism being good or bad has nothing do with this trope being good or bad.

"Nihilism" is not a trope. If you can come up with other tropes related to nihilism, go ahead and YKTTW them. I don't think anyone would object.

edited 26th Feb '13 12:39:20 PM by AmyGdala

A "Straw X" trope is inherently about how X is a bad idea and how you should not believe it.

The trope is about how it's a bad idea. But we're not saying it's a bad idea. If anything, by labeling negative portrayals as strawmen, we're saying it's a better idea than normally thought.

I know what "straw" means. It's just that it needs to clarify that not all nihilists are like this. I also realize that my argument may seem to be a bit reminiscent of "People Sit In Chairs", but here's the problem. It is a "straw" page. It should only include characters who embody an inaccurate, stereotypical brand of nihilism, but the article has recently become a catch-all for anyone who happens to have a nihilistic world view. Therefore, it comes across that the page is defining ALL nihilistic characters as this particular trope. I agree that it is a step up from the page's former name, "Nietzsche Wannabe". However, it should be sure make clear that not all nihilistic characters are like this, and that it is just a common misconception.

Worth noting that Nietzsche Wannabe was merged into Straw Nihilist by admin fiat.

OK, this page being misused for nihilism in general - that would be a problem.

The point of Anti-Nihilist is "not all nihilists are like this".

In fact, the point of Anti-Nihilist is to state that this is what Nietzsche envisioned a true nihilist as being.

King Zeal, what you say makes a lot of sense. And I guess that a "neutral nihilist" would just be a "True Neutral who happens to have nihilistic views". That would not be much of a trope.

However, I still think that we need a general Useful Notes page for Nihilism. Existentialism has one, and much of nihilism basically evolved out of existentialism.

I will note that the purpose of Useful Notes is not to serve as a meta-Wikipedia. Is it somehow related to storytelling?

Its purpose would be to explain the general concept, and to explain that not every nihilist is a Straw Nihilist. It would also help in developing more realistic nihilistic characters. By the way, I don't mean to be a Principles Zealot. I just am getting a bit annoyed with how philosophy tropes, in general, are treated here.

Would it be okay to just clarify, on the page itself, that it is not meant as a general trope on nihilism?

Side note: King Zeal, I did not realize that you, yourself, are an Anti-Nihilist. This explains why you were referencing it so vehemently. Greetings, brother.

edited 26th Feb '13 1:56:13 PM by SpaceWolf

As I wrote in that original thread:

Now that I have read it, I kinda agree with Amy in #2. It's not really about nihilists, but characters the creator portrays as nihilists for the purpose of having a villain or antagonistic character just for the sake of having a purpose or antagonistic view. Or in a more classical strawman fashion, a nihilist just to show that nihilism is wrong.

The trope would need to be cleaned if there are non-straw examples of nihilists, and possibly a change in description to more clearly reflect that.

Okay, that sounds good. Most of us seem to be in agreement, now, about the fact that the non-straws need to be cleaned out. But that begs the question; should we create a new nihilism trope for those characters? I earlier said that a "neutral nihilist" may not be tropable, but I am now reconsidering it, because it would be a nihilist who holds no particular opinion on what to do with humanity. This character would not have the heroic tendencies of an Anti-Nihilist (which I believe needs to be renamed), but (s)he would also not have the villainous goals of the straw. It would be like a Classical Antihero, only nihilistic, which, now that I think on it, is tropable. And if you don't like that idea, what would your other ideas be for an additional nihilistic trope?

On the other matter, I agree with better clarifying the trope, and making it more obvious that it doesn't apply to everyone.

On a somewhat random note, I like TV Tropes discussions. They're a lot more civil than than those on some other sites.

edited 26th Feb '13 6:21:33 PM by SpaceWolf

Slow down a bit. You're leading the topic discussion a little too quickly.

The issue with the Straw Nihilist trope is more along the lines that it's not really "straw" so much as they're just villainous. The trope essentially is "a character who does villainous or antagonistic acts because (s)he believes nothing else has meaning". A character who believe that NOTHING has any meaning and doesn't act heroic or villainous is basically just apathetic. There's a trope there, but I could swear we have it somewhere.

Do you have a good reasoning why the non-straw examples would fit a new trope, and what would make that actually tropable?

To King Zeal: Then, perhaps, this trope needs a new title. Also, there is a difference between simply not caring about something, and believing that nothing has objective meaning.

To Duck: Regarding who should be cleaned out, I think that anybody who is not explicitly evil, or between types IV and V on the sliding scale of antiheros, they should be moved to a different trope. Hamlet, for example, is included in this list. He shouldn't be, because he has somewhat heroic intentions. He also, under my interpretation, has Borderline Personality Disorder and clinical depression, while pretending to be manic and schizophrenic. So, much of his philosophy is either an act, or the result of psychological disorders.

For specific trope characteristics, here's a breakdown:

• Believes that nothing has any objective meaning or value.
• Possibly has a troubled back-story.
• Is either True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
• Is between I and III in the sliding scale of antiheroes.
• Could be an emo, but can be distinguished from that trope.

edited 27th Feb '13 10:07:20 AM by SpaceWolf

I think it's less about excluding heroic interpretations, and more about excluding characters who're portrayed to be right, or at least have a point. If it's a villain, but one whose motivation is presented as plausible and reasonable if you come from his direction, I don't think it fits. At the same time, if you have, say, The Lancer who's an Anti-Hero, he could still touch this trope if he's portrayed as being completely wrong in that particular belief.

I don't think you should refer to the sliding scale of antiheroes. Refer to actual tropes instead. Those may-bes are a little vague. If it's something that possibly is true, it's not really relevant as far as defining it goes.

edited 26th Feb '13 7:53:02 PM by AnotherDuck

Can't we separate Nietzsche Wannabe and Straw Nihilst? It's kind of silly since some fictional characters are legitimate Nihilists. It's also dumb since characters like Araya Souren from Kara No Kyoukai is a genuine nihilst and you can't call his Freudian Excuse Straw Nihilism.

That is not an argument for what you are arguing for.

Also, I disagree on splitting Nietzsche Wannabe and Straw Nihilist. I do not see visible differences.

"The point of Anti Nihilist is "not all nihilists are like this". "

But... Isn't that kind of counter to that point? I mean, "anti" means "a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc. " or "a prefix meaning “against,” “opposite of,” “antiparticle of,”" according to dictionary. So that while name is meant to imply anti straw nihilist, the way it is named implies that straw nihilists are "true" nihilists while anti ones aren't.

Recap of current goals, for those who are just joining the conversation:

• Remove any examples that are non-straw.
• Rewrite the description, so that it better reflects straw characters, as opposed to simply describing nihilistic villains.
• Come up with a possible new trope to put non-straw characters in; for example, "True Nihilist" or "Neutral Nihilist".
  • Find a way to make this tropable.
• Possibly rename "Anti-Nihilist".

Also, there are several links that still take you to the former trope name, "Nietzsche Wannabe". I suggest that we root these out.

edited 27th Feb '13 10:14:08 AM by SpaceWolf

Also, on Anti Nihilist page description... Its rather misleading as it directly states that Straw Nihilists are Omnicidal Maniacs and "Strongest rule" villains. "Basically, a Nihilist that decides to be nice, altruistic, virtuous and/or ethical for the same reasons the Straw Nihilist decides to be an unfettered, Social Darwinist, Omnicidal Maniac. " Straw nihilist would be more like a nihilist who also has very cynical/pessimistic view on world, it doesn't mean that they would be villains.

edited 27th Feb '13 10:51:29 AM by SpookyMask

Though I said earlier that Straw Nihilist is a much better name than "Nietzsche Wannabe," I strongly support renaming it again with a tighter definition. Straw X is in general a bad family, one not much better than the always-bad Hollywood X. Straw X doesn't really tell us what a depiction is so much as tell us what it's not. Nihilist Villain or Amoral Nihilist or Nihilist Misantrope would make for a better page.

@Amy Gdala

It's not that I'm against Straw Nihilist since it's an accurate description of people with a hole in their logic and reason for grieving and cynicism.

Also isn't sometimes more than just villains who are nihilist? Probably some anti-heroes have that trait. Make a general page of Nihilism and have links to the weaker nihilist version: Straw Nihilist and genuine article Nietzche Wannabe.

edited 27th Feb '13 2:25:39 PM by Couchpotato20

Maybe not Nihilist Villain, but let's hammer down a definition for this page - one more valid that "the bad way that works portray Nihilism."