Summon an everyman hero.........why?

Don't bother. The only one trying to create a "debate" is you. Let me trying putting this as simply as I can:

• d Roy is asking a question about the trope Summon Everyman Hero.
• The Harry Potter series is not an example of Summon Everyman Hero.
• Therefore, Harry Potter is not relevant to the question.

edited 5th Oct '12 6:05:46 PM by nrjxll

1. That sounds like quite an interesting idea for a story (although I think there are a few examples of an evil or Anti-Hero SEH).
2. They are in works where Children Are Innocent (which came about because of societies which consider such true, clearly you would have some Values Dissonance in such cases). I only brought up humanity in point 1., where it was the relevant factor in the "everyman" (as the idea of an innocent child is in this one).
3. Who knows. The Chosen Zero's a trope for a reason, after all.
4. I can think of plenty of stories where the "summoner" at least didn't expect to need to train the hero (and even if I didn't, every story is unique, it would be unlikely that all stories required it).

1, 3. - No good reason, then.

2. There aren't that many works that feature both trope.

4. I don't remember reading any work with SEH that didn't require at least some form of training.

Personally, my opinion has always been that the best way to handle this trope is to make it an accident.

d Roy, let me second the previous question: why exactly are you asking this? Is it for a particular story? If so, what's the specific scenario?

@nrj - Reason. Hmm...

I just thought about Narnia and this (awful) anime called Zero No Tsukaima that I got roped into watching. The book (do note that I read the first book and the Magician's Nephew) and the anime got me thinking about the trope. I checked the trope and it seems that judging from the number of examples, it is a pretty common trope. I also noticed that some of these everyman heroes are sometimes often underage as well.

It got me thinking, to borrow words of Oh So into Cats, it doesn't make any sense for the forces of good in Generic Fantasy Novel A to pick an everyman/teenager to save the world. This seems to show that the forces of good are either weak or stupid.

I am hoping that this is a valid reason for asking.

edited 5th Oct '12 6:30:29 PM by dRoy

Or both.

In that case, I'd definitely say that the best way to do the trope is make it an accident.

Incidentally, while I don't like everymen or teenage protagonists much, I don't think either is actually necessary for the trope. The Everyman is a bit more specific concept then the "average hero", which is something I've tried to play with on occasion.

edited 5th Oct '12 6:35:41 PM by nrjxll

@nrj - Accident sounds reasonable.

My current writing principle is that in dramatic works, all sides should be as competent as possible and use all the resources they have in order to make the most entertaining and engaging work.

Really, why can't force of good summon someone like this?◊ What is the problem?

@Nrj

But I 1.- Didagree that he isn't an everyman. I said he was one but bery briefly at the first book.

2.- Even if true that he isn't an everyman. Fine let's say I am wrong. I am using him to make a point about a similar topic. You might be familiar with the concept of using something similar right?. In spanish is called "simil"

There is disagreement between you and me ergo there is a debate.

Honestly I am getting tired of always bothering with you every thread. I am proposing a civil solution. If you don't want it that's your choice. Its obvipus we dont get along, for my part I will try to avoid you from now on, to a avoid conflict.

For my part I am done with this thread.

edited 5th Oct '12 7:32:29 PM by FallenLegend

The counterpoint to that is that groups in real life are not unfailingly competent and well-organized, although their failings are usually of a different sort from those in fiction.

@nrj - True. Spec ops commandos are only human, after all. Even then, wouldn't they be more competent and prepared than just an everyman?

^ Depends on what you summon them for. Summon a Navy SEAL to change a baby prince's diaper to save the kingdom and you have a 50/50 chance the SEAL might not know a damn thing what to do or how to handle it. But summon the everyman and the odds go slightly higher.

Rule of thumb is, stuff like military elites are generally more prepared, trained and capable than your average everyman...unless said everyman at one point in his/her past was part of that.

edited 5th Oct '12 7:47:24 PM by MajorTom

Never thought about something like that. I would think that they would be summoned for more combat oriented roles, though.

Wouldn't that make him not an everyman?

edited 5th Oct '12 7:48:07 PM by dRoy

Nobody ever said the summoners were smart.

Fair point.

It seems to me that it may also depend on the reasons for summoning the everyman in question.

For example, if I recall correctly, I've read at least one story in which the desired trait was a rational mind, something which the everyman in question very much had; nor was it intense tactical planning, or experience of warfare, or scientific knowledge that was desired: simply a rational and perhaps "down-to-earth" approach.

The selection may also be made in order to do something for the everyman - summon an average guy with terrible self-esteem in order to save the kingdom and help him to build his self-image. (In such cases the exact selection may be made or directed by some power capable of discerning that the person may be helped by the experience as well as being capable of performing the tasks ahead.) I seem to think that I recall there being at least some degree of this in Narnia: the children are summoned at least in part to help them to grow.

Finally, on similar points to those given above, the summoner may not have the knowledge to make such a selection (does a fantasy wizard know what a Navy SEAL is, for example?), or the selection might be entirely random, getting an "everyman" simply by virtue of sheer numbers.

edited 6th Oct '12 9:34:28 AM by ArsThaumaturgis

Going back to the OP, I also suspect that it's an easy way to create an Audience Surrogate as well as promote actual plot difficulties. If the somebody summoned a mechanic to fix a car, the story would be quite short.

Exactly. Summoner who summons an everyman is an unskilled idiot, like Louise in Zero No Tsukaima. Summoner who Summon Bigger Fish is intelligent and skilled.

Or like Ars said, the summon is random, but then there isn't much of a point of summoning in the first place.

edited 6th Oct '12 3:27:44 PM by shiro_okami

Though I haven't seen it used in any works yet, you could also have the summoner be The Mole. He obviously doesn't want to give the good guys a strong power-up, but failing to summon anyone too many times will put his position in danger. So he goes and summons the Everyman, claiming he is The Chosen One, and that will at least buy him some more time. Unfortunately for him, with some training, the Everyman manages to take up his role as The Chosen One...

From a narrative perspective I would say, that the Summon Everyman Hero trope is usally used to setup a Fish out of Water situation.

For that purpose, a naive everyman that asks uncomforty questions works better, then a trained soldier who just follows orders.

Also in fantasy settings firearms may not be all that, depending on how common magic is in it.

Except when it, you know, doesn't. Soldiers are products of their societies and the technologies those societies maintain, to borrow a theme from Keegan's The Face of Battle. Fish out of water is easily constructed with or without the military background.

Even summoning a modern soldier is unlikely to be a gamebreaker in itself. They will probably bring superior skills in some always-applicable things like how to use terrain, sound and light discipline, and so forth. But at the same time a lot of what they know is dependent on the world they come from to make it work. The most dangerous thing an infantryman carries isn't a rifle, it's a radio. If no one is listening, you've stepped back a long, long ways. And so on.

So most of the time, I have to conclude it's pure laziness; a writer who doesn't want to do research, not an audience surrogate but a surrogate for themselves so they don't have to work and don't have to admit they're not doing work.

edited 7th Oct '12 1:28:18 AM by Night

Bioterrorism, mostly.

When we metaphorically tried to reconnect with our slightly estranged siblings who we hadn't seen for a little while because they wanted to get out of the house and be independent, they caught a lot of deadly diseases (Quickened by vermin and lice-infested bed-sheets, but still eventually contagious) and died by the cargoship-load. Get some poor sod who doesn't stand a chance against the evil empire, tell him that he's the chosen one and it's his duty to save the kingdom of exceptionally pretty-looking humans and other creatures that look like humans with quirky personalities from a bunch of monsters who are incredibly stupid, evil, and ugly who despite their inferior tactics, hygiene, organization, and technology are obviously oppressing the pretty people (All the signs of prosperity, health, longevity, and surplus aren't important, you need to focus on slaughtering the diseased, starving, joyless guys who can barely be called sentient that want are primarily motivated by the desire for better lives and who live perpetually in a cruel, unforgiving land covered by perpetual darkness and without any beauty or hope for its inhabitants to find solace in. But it's ok, because they aren't human and they're ugly).

Give him a sword, a false sense of hope involving a prophecy, maybe one or two unlikely companions (An energetic and quirky guard girl who doesn't follow the rules and is often more kickass and willing to fight for her ideals than the average male guard, yet has a soft feminine side that the summoned hero slowly unearths, maybe a thief who, after being captured by the local authorities for one crime or another, is forced to accompany the adventurers lest he be put to death, and who is initially perceived by the Hero and others as an untrustworthy rogue with only his self-interest in mind, yet who slowly proves his worth and sacrifices great economic gain for his newfound friends and desire to help other people, all the while trying to promote this newfangled idea of, "democracy".)

Pat him on his back and send him on his way, and soon you'll have a large amount of enemies dying from diseases they contracted off of a corpse that their immune systems couldn't handle, two less obnoxious dissenters who refused to do what they were told, and a bunch of other enemies deathly afraid of you because you used a mysterious and deadly curse on the ugly-guys of unknown origin and you're threatening to use it on them next.

Profit!

edited 7th Oct '12 2:17:56 AM by Rem

As Night said, soldiers are as much a product of their societies as any other person. They may be in good physical shape and have a set of specialized skills, but ultimately, depending on how different the world is, those won't always be helpful.

A preschool teacher, a marine, a chef, and a mayor would all be equally disadvantaged if magically transplanted to Narnia or the Planescape or whatever setting, because all their knowledge depends on the context of this world to apply. So from the view of the summoner all humans are equally (in)capable. Since all of Earth is an "everyman" in this situation, the spell picks someone at random, and the odds are higher of getting a random, uninteresting person than a marine, private detective, or physicist.

Uhh no. The preschool teacher and the mayor yes. (Especially the mayor.) The Marine will know not only wilderness survival on par or better than most of the locals he'd be well-equipped if he was the one summoned to save Narnia from the White Witch. Why? Marines are trained in all forms of combat from rifle marksmanship to bayonet, knife and hand to hand fighting. Plus he'd know a few things about combat such as terrain positioning, the importance of hitting flanks, etc. Better yet he'd be mentally disciplined (usually...) so there's little chance he'd take one Centaur being frozen and shattered in battle as a sign of "Oh fuck run away!" rather than requiring a revision in tactics.

The chef could at least carve out a niche for himself/herself by making tasty tasty food. S/He'd never need worry about starving at least.

The Marine'll know Earth survival techniques. And he'll be a better physical fighter. But physical fighting prowess isn't the be-all and end-all of skill.

He won't know the flora and fauna, he won't know the terrain, or the weather quirks, or the social customs and mores that could turn what could be a friendly group into enemies or vice versa.

He's no more likely to know how to use a sword or a bow effectively. He knows how to shoot a gun, but does he know how to make gunpowder and reload ammo without a reloading bench? If not, then that gun is only useful till he uses up the ammo he brought.

He's used to working with a team, but that team is usually skilled in the the same things he is, and has similar training. How well does he work with people who aren't and don't?

He's used to giving or following orders (depending on his rank) but how well does he lead when he has to persuade people to follow him or do what he says, rather than commanding them to do so? How well will he follow someone who doesn't fit his concept of "higher-ranking"?

Military isn't always better.

edited 7th Oct '12 6:25:16 AM by Madrugada