The Older Than Television
index has a problem in its definition: the upper and lower cutoffs for what to include are entire decades, making it fuzzy and unclear what belongs here, what belongs in Older Than Radio
, and what goes under the Classic TV heading in The Oldest Ones in the Book
. Likewise, Older Than Radio
(I can't tag both) includes the 1890s in its description.
All the other sub-indicies in there have single years for their cutoff dates, making if clear what does and doesn't belong on each index. But "1890's" and "1940's" are too broad, and confusing. The 1890s are listed on both Older Than Radio
and Older Than Television
, so on which index does a trope from that decade belong? Do tropes from the 1940s belong on Older Than Television
, or not?
As pointed out in a previous thread about this ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13240064610A75580100
), this has resulted in Older Than Television
and Older Than Radio
doubling up examples (I've cleared out the doubles now, I think) and having some entries on Older Than Radio
being more recent than some on Older Than TV
, though feotakahari cleaned those up a while ago.
I think that the lower and upper cutoffs for Older Than TV
should both be single years. It would be a simple change, and I volunteer to fix the wicks and examples. It doesn't really matter to me what years are picked — my suggestion, to be consistent with Older Than Print
and Older Than Steam
, is to go by when radio and television each became widespread media used for broadcast and works, not by when they were actually invented. The end years of WWI and WWII (1945), respectively, have been suggested previously as being good cutoffs at the start of widespread broadcasts, that also marked important cultural and historical changes (much as Older Than Feudalism
ends at the fall of Rome).
I did a wick check of the two indexes and can post that, in case that's required, but since the problem is an unclear description I'm not sure this is relevant.
Quotes of previous discussion:
Splitting The Oldest Ones In The Book discussion
Note: "Early Modern" was the early name for Older Than Television
Dark Sasami: ... Not sure where you divide what you have as Early Modern and Classic TV though.
Morgan Wick: Probably right around the end of World War II. Television as a technology is as old as radio is as a mass media, but it was mostly an experiment in the labs of the Radio Corporation of America (which then owned the NBC radio network) and at CBS. It hadn't really reached mass market proportions by the time World War II came around, at which point, since it doesn't really have much field military application, it was mostly forgotten. At the end of the war, though, there were a whole bunch of G Is returning home with a whole lot of disposable income that were willing to try all sorts of newfangled technologies (like rich teenagers with disposable income who spend it on iPods and cell phones and make them into integral parts of our culture), and all the factories were already busy producing weapons and fighters the country didn't need anymore. As a result, television boomed; by around 1948 the FCC halted all licences for television stations because they couldn't keep up with the demand.
Robert: 1945 is about right, but with some fuzziness. Mostly, this will be for tropes from 50's TV, those originated by I Love Lucy and its peers.
Damian Yerrick: I'd say 1923 because that's the cutoff date in the United States for the difference between public domain status and perpetual copyright on the installment plan.
Silent Hunter later suggested that "pre-TV" would be "1926 or thereabouts."
: Older Than Radio
and Older Than Television
would benefit from specific cutoff years, because people did not stop inventing tropes during the vaguely-identified "1890s" and "1940s." I suggest changing the television cutoff to 1939 or 1945. The radio cutoff could be 1900 or 1914 or 1918.
Ask The Tropers archive
: What is the cut off date on Older Than Radio
, the discussion page gives 1888 but many page examples are younger? The Other Wiki
gives the first "As we know it" broadcast being 1906
, should we be using that? It'd help to have a firm date on that page. Sorry if this is in the wrong place, I wasn't sure where to put it. The Laconic entry gives WW1
, but that seems a bit late.
is actually pretty good if you're talking about radio as a standard broadcast medium
, rather than as a technology, and it's a convenient dividing line historically.
: I would agree with Micah. Up to WWI, radio was technologically possible, but wasn't really a public medium.
: If we are going for WW1
as the cut off then it needs added to the trope page and a clean up on Older Than Radio
and Older Than TV
as some stuff on the latter would be moved to the former. Do we have a consensus to do that?
: I'm good with that.
Most recent thread about this (by feotakahari): http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13240064610A75580100
edited 6th Sep '12 1:58:52 PM by ArcadesSabboth
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