Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here, plus the following:
- You don't PM moderators about stuff pertaining to the policies, except for thread reasons;
- We tolerate links to scanlation sites unlike in the rest of the site due to its purpose, although it's preferred to remove them when they have done their jobs;
- The forum is not a soapbox for your own views on the policy or on morality. Please leave them at the door.
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
- Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
- Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
- Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
- Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
- Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
- Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
- Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.
What we're looking for:
- Pure porn, or porn with an Excuse Plot only,
- Anything that has explicit underage sex,
- Implied sex of preteens or younger, and
- Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles (lolicon and shotacon fanservice can count).
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
- Do not list whole indexes or works just because they are on a certain index or have lolicon, H-Game or shotacon on their trope list.
- Do not list works you know nothing about without at least reading the trope page.
- Do not list works that you know are G-rated but you find creepy.
- If it's paedophile-pandering approximately how old are the characters involved? What happens? Is it graphic? Is it merely implied?
- List what objectionable content there is, and how much of the work consists of that.
- If it's entirely sex, say so. People have different ideas of what porn is. We all have the same idea of what a work being entirely sex scenes is.
- If you're not sure about a work, say so, or ask someone who does know that work. But don't make blanket accusations. Post here: "I don't know about this work, but the page says X".
- Google and Wikipedia are your friendsnote . Do a little digging on works you aren't sure about.
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
- When are the sex scenes located?
- Are they spread out over the game?
- How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?
- Are they only at the endings?
- How hard do you have to work to get an ending?
- Are they in every ending? Every good ending?
- Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?
- Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?
- Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?
- How explicit are the sex scenes?
- This isn't a headcount. Your opinion is only considered if it explains in at least some detail how you came to the conclusion that the work is/isn't porn/paedopandering.
- When a moderator determines that the discussion has yielded a consensus, they can enact its conclusion/ask a moderator to enact the conclusion.
- The discussion is only about whether the work qualifies as porn or as paedopandering. We don't assess anything else in this process.
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread.
Q. This episodic work isn't finished yet. Shouldn't we wait for the ending before discussing it?
A. No. If released instalments may violate the content policy, we want to take action as soon as that's established — we don't need to wait for the ending. We can always revisit a decision to cut or keep once the work is over, but that point might still be years or decades away.
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread for this.
- Guro: Violence played for titillation. (contrast Gorn)
- 5P or P5: The panel that administered the policy prior to the review system being overhauled in 2022. See 5P.
- P(a)edoshit: Older term for "P(a)edopandering", deprecated for being inflammatory.
- Porn: A work mostly concerned with sexual arousal. Having NSFW or explicit scenes doesn't automatically make a work porn — it's when showcasing explicit scenes is the entire point of the work.
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by Mrph1 on May 5th 2024 at 6:00:30 PM
So basically, something with sexualized violence played for horror rather than titillation (like the last part of my mostly-not-written-but-planned-out canon) would still be good?
There are some other aspects of this unwritten series I would like to moot as examples to discuss, but I'll save it until someone asks, or an appropriate topic comes up.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.Sexualized violence played for horror? Sorry, I can't follow - sounds like a contradiction.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanSeptimus: Well, a comparable situation would be rape. Rape is not always fetishized when it is in a work, so it is not unreasonable to say a similar situation would occur with portrayal of sexualized violence. For example, if the author were attempting to induce squick reactions in the audience or make them uncomfortable with what they're reading.
No, Arha, I not talking about rape, just guro.
Troper On A Stick V 2, if your work has violence that is there for titillation as its main thing, it probably won't pass. If it has violence and some of it is for titillation, it will probably pass as "not porn". In any case, it's somewhat edge territory and the only thing I can say is that you should flag the page upon creation so that the 5P can express the verdict.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanThe sexualized violence doesn't come up until the very end, when everything goes to hell and it stops pretending to be remotely family-friendly. And none of it would actually be played for titillation, just horror.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.If it isn't played for titillation, then it can't be simultaneously "sexualized".
Anyway, since the page for that work doesn't exist yet, it's probably too early to discuss it and I think this thread is meant to be for general policy not for specific works which have their own thread (The Place) when they are flagged.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanSeptimus: I didn't say you were talking about rape, I said that the two things can be used for certain effect. Can't Interplay of Sex and Violence deal with that? So can Combat Sadomasochist. The latter can be really creepy, yet is based around sexualized violence. And it's not really porn.
edited 21st Aug '12 4:29:42 PM by Arha
Yes, let's not bog the thread down with hypotheticals.
If that's the case, then let's not bog the thread down by dancing around questions either. Ask your questions outright, and save us a bit of trouble.
edited 21st Aug '12 4:32:52 PM by tdgoodrich1
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard CohenI think he's trying to ask how these rules apply to Unpublished Works.
My answer, being, of course, just as strict, if not stricter, since it's really hard to argue those pages aren't an endorsement of some kind.
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)I'm just using it as a hypothetical example.
And I consider there to a a difference between "played for titillation" and "sexualized". Something can be sexualized, i.e. have sexual elements, but not be played for titillation, that is, to get someone's rocks off.
And I'm not asking if the rules apply to unpublished works. Just using one as an example.
edited 21st Aug '12 4:41:27 PM by TroperOnAStickV2
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.@Septimus 26
I can't speak for the modmins, but speaking as P5:
(1) I don't know if we ever made any official decision; AFAIK the (non-prurient) examples are allowed to stay, with any redlinks removed
(2)We did, and it should be changed accordingly
(3)Addressed already
(4) If we get consensus to require a reason in the thread/discussion it should be changed accordingly, otherwise remove the link to the now-locked and de-stickied thread. note
(5)Yes. Yes it could.
edited 21st Aug '12 5:11:01 PM by tdgoodrich1
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard CohenSeptimus, sexualizing violence has nothing to do with making it titillating. In fact, in most works the two are mutually exclusive because for most people sexualized violence is deeply disturbing. Taking an example from a crime drama I watched recently, stabbing a woman in the ovaries and painting whore on her with her blood is sexualizing violence. In a show like Law And Order this would be played for horror. There's nothing titillating about it just because it's sexual.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickI think whats happening is we are confusing sexualized(for titillation) and sexual(of a sexual nature).
Right. Fetishized violence would be like a film I saw when I was younger and living with roommates — it was a reel of absurdly gory deaths and mutilations in real life, done entirely for shock value. That's the gore equivalent of cheap porn.
To this day, I wish I hadn't seen it.
edited 21st Aug '12 7:11:27 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"How does shock value come in exactly? We've worked under titillating violence being bad, but what of stuff for shock?
Basically, yes. If the work's primary purpose is titillation, then it runs the risk of being cut for essentially being porn as stated in the content policy.
edited 21st Aug '12 7:18:26 PM by Komodin
Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.@Septimus, post 12:
Added a link to this thread in the announcement.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.That's what I'm talking about. Sexualized violence played for shock and/or horror. And to show how horribly pear-shaped everything has gone at that point.
Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.edit: wrong thread.
edited 22nd Aug '12 1:53:46 PM by Meeble
Visit my contributor page to assist with the "I Like The Cheeses" project!...Am I the only one finding this current discussion unclear because they can't understand the way some of these terms are being used? What exactly is distinguishing "titillation" from "sexualization"?
We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)Titillation means 'You, the reader, should find this sexy' while sexualization is just including sexual elements. Sexualization can be used to horrify as easy as to titillate.
Yes, sexualization is merely making something sexual in nature. Sexual things are not always titillating and titillating things are not always sexual.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. DickOne slightly meta-question that came up in the thread linked in my sig but didn't receive much attention: Isn't this thread redundant to that one? Can we merge them? (My idea there is to unlocknote the thread in CV, add a rule to the OP against debate and crosspost the OP of the Wiki Talk thread)
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanDo forum threads about works that were cut due to violating content policy still allowed or do they get nuked? The post on the General Announcements thread did mention that threads about pornographic works are not allowed . I assume that works that were cut for pedo-pandering are included too, right? Just wondering since some threads are still alive. Since mods aren't omnipresent, do we have to holler for them?
"Learning without thinking is labor lost. Thinking without learning is dangerous."
^Yes. And to prevent this tangent from taking over the thread...
Mods: Any view on my other comments?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman