MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
Oh My
I sadly was not blessed with a good father. My father figures were instead my grandfather and the father of a friend of mine in high school. As well as certain teachers.
My dad himself is like the bumbling father if the bumbling father was a stalker with anger management issues.
The fact that this is pretty much the only view of dads (sans the overt "I AM BREAKING DOWN THE DOOR BECAUSE I CAN'T STAND THAT YOU HAVE ANOTHER MAN RARGRRRGFGH" moments of fear) is annoying though.
If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Well it's encouraging. I believe it was a combination of a push by fathers to get men to do father stuff and be there for the family, and do family stuff and do housework, and so at the same time want to be recognised for this increase share of the work. The two should go hand in hand. Men do more of the housework, they get recognised for doing more of the housework.
Before I start... what is oppression olympics? I don't want to upset the OP by unnecessarily drifting into it. 
I would like to point this out:
- Having higher standards for males in, say, physical activities.
This is not equal standards, and thus technically "sexist". Then one can counter by saying that males are better in physical activities so this is more fair. But what about...
- Not having higher standards for females in... whatever they're supposedly better in.
If men are better at running around, lifting weights, and whatnot, and standards are adjusted to make males do better, then males are forced to work harder whether or not that's accurate. That's an undue burden. So what are women better at? Whatever it is, shouldn't the standards be adjusted for that, too?
I, for one, don't mind having so-called "gender roles" as long as both genders contribute fairly. But when a side cries for handicaps when disadvantaged, and then cries for equal standards when its advantage is handicapped away, you truly have a double standard.
That's why there shouldn't be a male-only draft. If there is a male draft for the military, there should be female draft for a certain X.
Now using Trivialis handle.
Oppression Olympics: whining "but MY oppression is worse than YOUR oppression!", which almost always starts an argument with the OP about which one is worse which wastes everyone's time for no good reason.
I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
The bumbling dad is as far as I can see purely a comedy trope, compare "The pursuit of happiness" for a different portrayal. Or any father outside of comedy.
While I see it as annoying when it's present in a work, I don't see it as an overall problem. It's not like this is so pervasive that there is no work of fiction without it.
In other words, don't enjoy it? Then don't watch it.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Oppression Olympics: whining "but MY oppression is worse than YOUR oppression!", which almost always starts an argument with the OP about which one is worse which wastes everyone's time for no good reason.
Plus, it's generally kind of a dick move to invalidate/trivialise other people's experiences like that.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Uh actually it is kinda pervasive now,unless you go back to the 1950's sitcoms.
Seriously there needs to be a balance between the absent-minded '50's mother and the Bumbling Dad,that's a good start
The Cosby Show went out of its way to avert both tropes.
Although Claire still seems to be the more dominant partner in the marriage, but it can be argued that many marriages aren't completely equal.
edited 18th Jun '12 1:42:52 PM by KingZeal
Just awesome like that
I think that the bumbling dad trope is just because it's easier to do politically correct than it is to make mothers look bad. You could argue that this is sexism itself but it's always been the case where the majority power holder was easier to ridicule because they can share the laugh without concern.
That still doesn't make it okay. And as the article stated, it's moved on past television shows and movies, and it's started showing up as commercials depicting fathers neglecting their children in favor of watching sports. I don't see how sending the message that "fathers are completely clueless and will neglect/abuse your kids if you leave them alone with him" is funny.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Oh no,not Adults Are Useless that's also too common,something more like lets say one episode or arc,the mother screws up,the next the Dad's the bumbler. And not the sociopathic option that Family Guy and their ilk feed on
So far the only sitcom that's managed to do both over the years is The Simpsons.
It's Like Arguing on the Internet
Maybe have more subversions of the Bumbling Dad character type? Like, he seems lazy and inept but has Hidden Depths that often save the day?
Somehow you know that the time is right.
The Bumbling Dad cliche seems to me just another aspect of toxic masculinity. Being good with kids, or willing and able to do housework competently, is emasculating and men are trained to recoil from the very idea. They'd rather be seen as clueless idiots than as succeeding in a "womanly" role.
Bumbling dads are usually incompetent in the business live as well. I see it more as escapism from the pressure to be successful. How would being a good worker in a nuclear power plant be "emasculating"?
Pour y voir clair, il suffit souvent de changer la direction de son regard www.xkcd.com/386/
Who's Vergo-san.
One problem is that Most Writers Are Male and Most Writers Like To Poke Fun At Themselves.
I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
Just awesome like that
Besides, if these people are really as clueless as they are portrayed, one must wonder how the hell they survived in the time between moving out of their parents' place and getting hitched without starving or contracting all manner of infectious diseases.
Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, that's part of the stereotype too. I've seen a bunch of jokes about how men have to marry, because they're too stupid to live on their own.
There are, however, amusingly statistics that show single men die earlier than married ones.
Why so serious?
And married women, earlier. Whatever that says about gender relations.
Wait...that means the only solution is for all men to become gay and make out for womens' amusement.
Oh my God, the Yaoi Fangirls were right all along!!
^^ Well darn, that messes up everything.
I remember hearing that. A similar trend shows for mental illness. As things currently stand, marriage is good for men but bad for women. Or maybe unmarried life is bad for men but good for women? Either way, something here needs to be rectified.
edited 20th Jun '12 11:42:39 AM by Karalora
Hmm, I'd always heard that the life expectancy rates still said that out of an old married couple, the man will probably die first.
Just to make sure I understood correctly, it's not that married women lead shorter lives than married men, so much as that single women live longer than married women while married men live longer than single men?
Kind of ironic too, considering the social pressure on women to marry, and the concept that getting married as a man is getting the ol' ball and chain, and losing your freedom.
Might be because women in general seem to put so much effort into those relationships. While things are changing and going closer to the middle, it wouldn't be far off to say that married women in western society still tend to pick up the larger role in parenting and housekeeping overall. Which combined with the fact that most women work now makes for a rather high tempo lifestyle, which creates stress, which lessens life expectancy. Just a theory though, could be wrong.
edited 20th Jun '12 1:30:01 PM by Barkey
And the "bumbling dad" stereotype has always annoyed the shit out of me as well.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed. ~Cora M. Strayer~