Complaining: They Just Didnt Care

This trope is not Did Not Do The Research. D.N.D.T.R. is a sin on the part of the creators at the start of the process. T.J.D.C. is a sin on the part of the production staff during the process.

Can you get a less negative one, then? AFAIK, the trope really is "Works made with little or no effort towards the presentation"

I would point out that I put down the "Clean up examples" option because when you make a crowner where every option is a rename or cut it isn't a fair assessment of what the community wants to do with the trope. Even if it is obvious something needs to happen based on the discussion, you always need that option.

My main concern with that option is that from a quick reading of this thread and the history of this trope I can derive that it won't fix anything on its own.

Also, a rename will probably have the same effect, since we usually remove misuse during a rename.

A rename doesn't always happen because of misuse, it often happens because of just being a bad name. The definition of the trope is clearly written out, it is a matter of cleaning up misuse and finding out if people feel the name needs to be changed to prevent future problems. If both "Clean-up" and "Rename" are high on the crowner then we can do both, they aren't exclusive.

The problem is that only "cleanup" seems to have consensus here. If it's true that the page was already revamped once, then I say that this option will be nothing but a waste of manhours.

At the exact moment of me writing this post the only other options going even remotely positive are cutting the page and redirecting to another trope. I personally would rather see this trope stick around instead of going away, you simply aren't always going to get your preferred option with a crowner.

I don't know what's causing the misuse here. Maybe striking the mention of TCINIS from the description would help.

Given that "not reading a page you are linking to" is the most common reason and that this page's definition is at odds with the name, the name is most likely to blame.

Votes bump; the only option in green is the "cleanup" option, which without a rename is almost certainly going to be a pointless waste of time, given the nature of the name as a Stock Phrase with a lot more meanings and interpretations than the underlying trope.

While I basically agree with you and voted accordingly, it's not the end of the world if we just do cleanup. Sometimes a cleanup can be enough, even when you think it might not. Without bad examples, new bad examples can be less likely to (re-)appear.

Worst case, we drag it back to TRS in another year or so, with a "we tried a cleanup and it didn't help; time for more drastic action" comment.

Well surely cleanup is something we can be getting on with at the moment, isn't it? It's not like removing non-examples is something that requires a TRS consensus. The only reason I haven't been doing so already is that I still don't think I've got a handle on what the trope's meant to be (and I'm still not convinced it should exist).

I think we should change the trope so it does not only refer to all the work in question. A part of the work with poor production values should also be included.

It's not complaining about shows you don't like since zippers in the monster rubber suits, bad photoshops, etc. are fairly objective things.

edited 1st Jul '12 9:40:02 AM by Anfauglith

What's the point of only pointing out a part of the work having poor production values? We have a bunch of subtropes for that anyway like Visible Boom Mic and Special Effects Failure. This should be about the overall whole and allowing leeway for smaller elements is only another opening for misuse.

But those other tropes are more specific, and don't imply that They Just Didn't Care. For example if you make a science fiction movie where an alien appears, and you don't have enough resources for the special effect but still put effort into it, it could go into Special Effect Failure, but it doesn't necessarily fit with the idea of TJDC.

As for the "what's the point" criticism, it could be made for thousands of other tropes, yet I don't think 'tis relevant. The issue at hand is that it seems many of you are concerned about the Complaining, and what I propose would also fix the issue. Let's take the existing Mass Effect 3 entry as an example: that work is divisive and a magnet for both Complaining and Complaining About Complaining. The game reveals the face of one of the main characters that is always masked, and it is done via a quick photoshop of a royalty free image. The trope-as-is implies the whole work is a nest of bad production, and this is questionable, and would attract natter, vandals, people saying that 'tis something small so it doesn't matter, others saying the character is important so it does, etc, you get the idea. If we stop restricting the trope for whole works, all the entry would say is that said cheap photoshop is bad production, and They Didn't Care....only that case, and not the rest. Both sides can agree on this, and it does not say that it doesn't matter nor that the whole game is like that. The fact that 'tis a cheap photoshop is objective, the rest not so much.

This would also not fit in other tropes. 'Tis not really a Special Effect Failure...

Many other entries follow the same template, and I believe that restricting it for whole works is problematic: it seems arbitrary, and unclear.

edited 1st Jul '12 12:29:24 PM by Anfauglith

"The issue at hand is that it seems many of you are concerned about the Complaining, and what I propose would also fix the issue."

You're proposing the definition changes from "the work as a whole doesn't meet some arbitrary standard of editorial quality" to "any individual aspect of a work etc etc"? That seems like it would give hundreds of brand new opportunities for complaining. You know those crappy shows where they show freezeframes of scenes from films and, hilariously, one of the guys in that thousand-man battle scene is wearing a digital watch? They Just Didn't Care! That lineless extra in the Stormtrooper outfit bumped his head and was too embarrassed to call for a cut - TJDC! A crew member is briefly visible in a one-off budget-straining Trash the Set scene and they couldn't even be bothered to reshoot the whole thing from scratch — TJDC!

No, because those examples would be an unintended mistake. Something small that is designed that way would fit into the trope, however. And 'tis not complaining, 'tis listing works where that kind of stuff happened. If you consider that complaining, then my opinion is that 'tis okay nevertheless.

edited 1st Jul '12 1:11:11 PM by Anfauglith

Of course just listing a work where something happened can be complaining, if the trope itself is overly negative and subjective. That's precisely why I think this trope is inherently complain-y.

90 percent of repair shop fixes are about renaming or redefining a trope so that there is no chance of misunderstanding it. The number one issue with this trope is that people are giving arbitrary labels to what they consider to be "just didn't care." Thus any sort of clarification must eliminate the variables as best as possible and ensure that each example is comparable to each other. Saying it can apply to a singular example within a work will only keep the definition broad and allow editors to interpret the trope however they see fit.

Everything ever made will have at least one aspect that is done half-way because they felt it was more important to focus on something else. Thus pointing out that some singular aspect was half-heartedly done is practically People Sit On Chairs, while a production where everything goes wrong is worthy of note.

Calling crowner: no consensus to act.

I'd say there's definitely a consensus to act. There's just no consensus on how to act...

So once again, this turns into "We should do something." "Should we do something?" "We should do something."

What's the consensus here? Anything to be done?

There isn't any consensus because it was already cleaned up once and the misuse returned, meanign that another cleanup effort likely won't work.

So, is there anything left to do here?

edited 25th Jul '12 11:48:41 AM by ccoa

EDIT: Never mind.

edited 26th Jul '12 8:05:51 AM by johnnye