Misused: Troll

As we define Troll, it's strictly used for online/Internet usage and the page has the examples to support it.

I clicked through about 15 wicks and all of them use it as a synonym for Jerkass and Faux Affably Evil. I think it's time to make it definition only/Fake Red Link it or create a new trope for it, possibly Jerk Ass On Purpose or something.

We already have The Gadfly for someone who does this off the internet.

I've noticed this as well. I think the reason a lot of those wicks aren't going to The Gadfly is that when people misuse Troll they do so because The Gadfly doesn't appear to have a lot of malice behind it. It's sort of teasing behavior while people use troll for something that's really sort of cruel.

People also use the word troll outside TV Tropes to mean the same we use The Gadfly for, so from that point of view, it's not misuse. That is, baiting for reactions regardless of if it's on The Internet or not.

There are definitely misused examples on Troll as well: Borat, the Edgar Allan Poe example in Literature, all of the Live Action TV examples, the BlazBlue and Kid Icarus: Uprising examples in Video Games, and the Hume quote under miscellaneous.

Really, I wonder if we actually need both of these. The actual behaviors are the same (at least the way TV Tropes uses The Gadfly—the traditional definition of a social gadfly is more a devil's advocate than a troll), "trolling" is rapidly becoming the standard word for these behaviors (see Trolling Creator), and the description of Troll reads more like a Useful Notes page than a trope.

My proposal:

• Merge Troll into the current article for The Gadfly, with the former's name.
• Move Troll's current definition to either Analysis.Troll or UsefulNotes.Internet Trolls

I think a merge would be best. The only significant difference I see is where you use them. The overall behaviour is still fishing for reactions, for your own amusement (and in the case of the more traditional meaning of social gadfly, for your purpose).

I'm not sure if this term used for this meaning originated on the internet and was adopted for off-internet usages, or if it originated prior to the internet and became popular from its use on the internet. Either way, as internet culture becomes more and more mixed with the rest of the culture, I've seen plenty of people younger than me (I'm 30) use the term for off-internet behavior.

If we want to keep this internet specific, a rename would be in order.

There is also the concern that "Troll" can also mean a type of mythical creature.

It's a preexisting term here, though.

The Gadfly was actually launched because it was decided that these examples didn't fit on the same article as a page about internet trolls. This was way back in the day and I don't really remember if it was by mod decree or what.

Not really All Trolls Are Different pretty much makes that clear (why is that All instead of Our?) and we dont have a single monster trope that is just the name of the monster which is a good thing I think.

I wouldnt be opposed to merging Troll and The Gadfly with Troll being the main name.

I have seen a Texting Troll before too.

edited 22nd Apr '12 5:06:13 AM by Raso

Because trolls are often different even within the same work.

Bump. The Gadfly doesn't have very catchy name, which is probably why people still continue to use Troll in it's place.

I think that if you want to merge the two you'll need to move the current contents of troll to another page. The Gadfly is not an internet troll and they're rather different phenomenon. Teasing someone and pissing them off online are two different things.

We probably just need to correct all the misued wicks to Jerkass or something of that nature.

Both tropes involve both, though. They're about raising a reaction. You can play them both maliciously or good-naturedly.

An internet troll is a specific phenomenon though. At best, it's a subtrope. At worst, it's not even really a trope, just something that's one of our information articles like The Shepherd.

edited 28th Apr '12 4:14:23 PM by Arha

True, but that's still only part of its use. The question here if we should use our own specific definition of it, or the more general that the rest of The Internet uses. The term didn't come from The Internet; that's just where it became wide-spread. And then it spread even more, to any person exhibiting such behaviour whether on forums or not, which is very similar to how we use The Gadfly (which is more general than its outside use, AFAIK). Well, that's at least my experience with how the term has been used: It's not just an internet forum personality/behaviour.

The way I differentiate the two is in the level of malice involved. While both try to get a rise out of people, The Gad Fly is much more good natured and playful about it (examples: Mion Sonozaki, Konota Izumi, Celestia. The Troll on the other hand is much more mean spirited and malicious (examples: /b/, Terumi, Bernkastel.

edited 2nd May '12 10:47:54 PM by magnum12

^ Perhaps you could say while The Gadfly messes with people in order to be funny, a troll messes with people in order to hurt them. Bernkastel, for example, is not really funny.

Yeah. Yukari would be somewhere around the middle, Depending On The Artist.

I can also attest to hearing the term "troll" used for offline behavior, both malicious and good-natured. I support a merge. I don't think I've ever heard anyone outside this wiki use the term "The Gadfly" to refer to this behavior.

I don't think a troll is specifically out to hurt people, or any other emotion. It's about raising a reaction, which is the response to said feelings. It's no fun if someone is hurt but doesn't say anything about it. It's another thing if someone reacts to it, which often makes a ruckus out of the issue.

In fairness to The Gadfly, is is mildly old fashion, therefore your average person isn't going to have heard the term much in daily life.

I can see Feather's logic, but the pages themselves do put some holes in it. The page for Troll does describes them as malcontents. The Gad Fly page describes them as typically being benign (or at the worst NOT bad people) and fun to be around. With those descriptions, Mion is quite funny (and still fun to be around) when she messes with Keiichi (its actually her way of showing her affection) while as Bernkastel is horrific in her trolling.

Also, the Mistakenly Banned page says that Gadflies tend to get accidentally banned for trolling as a result of misinterpreting their "harmless trickster/prankster" behavior for malice.

The trope descriptions support my argument that we should use an alignment difference as the basis for the split of the two tropes. Troll would function as the Evil Counter Part to The Gad Fly. The Gadfly is usually good or on the light side of neutral as opposed to the evil/ dark side of neutral Troll. Both gravitate towards chaos though.

Yeah, I think there's two tropes here as well. Troll as applied to Bernkastel seems more like Manipulative Bastard. Trying to hurt someone and trying to be funny are two different things. I'd support

1. The Gadfly: Person messes with others and it's funny.
2. Troll: Person manipulates others feelings because they're an asshole.
3. Internet Troll: Trope transplant from Troll.