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Working on a new title: Foe Yay get usage counts

First, regardless of whatever else we decide to do, the Yay trope family is becoming the YMMV tropes they are commonly used as and the objective tropes moved off to new pages. Thus, to keep it in line with the likes of Incest Subtext and Homoerotic Subtext it needs a similar name should it be ruled that this is a real trope not covered by other topics. After that it can be labeled a YMMV trope like the other Yay tropes are such as Three Yay and Ho Yay.

However, apart from the issues of consistency with related tropes, there's a question that probably needs to be answered first. Namely, in what ways is this distinct from Dating Catwoman? There are two things I can think of: One, Dating Catwoman implies some reciprocity between the pro and antagonist while in theory the Foe Yay thing could just be onesided or something. I don't know. Two, they may simply have their antagonist relationship set up to mirror a romantic relationship. Foe Yay claims the difference is that Dating Catwoman is text text rather than subtext, but Dating Catwoman doesn't say the same thing. According to it, both count.

edited 30th Mar '12 6:15:48 PM by Arha

Isn't Foe Yay just something that shippers see between characters? And isn't Dating Catwoman when a good guy dates a "villain"/Anti-Villain?

Foe Yay is when fans start to suspect that a good guy may have an abnormal interest in a bad guy, I think.
Hello Kitty isn't a cat. I don't know what to believe anymore.
You're thinking of Foe Yay Shipping. Foe Yay is supposed to be an objective trope. However, just like Ho Yay, it's awfully prone to shoehorning. Dating Catwoman claims that it can just be romantic subtext or outright romance.

Before I can go forward with this at all I need to know if the objective version of this trope is actually distinct from Dating Catwoman. I'm starting to think it is not. If it is distinct, though, we'll need to send an objective version to YKTTW.

Snarky romantic
Foe yay shipping is when fans start to ship together good and bad guy without any chemistry between these two. Foe yay is when there are some very suggestive scenes between both characters - like when character A becomes very touchy with character B i.e. putting his or her hand or the character's B chest. The line is very thin.

 6 lu 127, Sun, 8th Apr '12 8:13:29 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I'm fine with making this YMMV. And Dating Catwoman already covers what objective trope we need.
''信じなさい それわ貴方だけの物''
Making the YMMV is something to be taken for granted. I guess the next course of action would be a crowner to ask whether or not we believe Dating Catwoman to be the objective version of this trope. If so, we don't really have any work to do apart from maybe tweaking the definition of that page slightly. If not, we would probably either say there is no objective version, there's an objective version but it's too subject to interpretation and finally that there's an objective trope and that we'll launch it.

That seems to be all the reasonable courses of action. However, I'm hesitant to go ahead with that crowner before we get more input.

I suppose you could say it's when someone's hatred for their rival reaches the level of passion normally reserved for lovers, which actually makes it qualitatively different from Dating Catwoman but hard to definitively identify.

If we wanted to go for a really obscure Trope Namer, we could call it Kismesis...

I am so, so sorry.

PS: Would the YMMV version of this be distinguishable from Foe Yay Shipping?

edited 8th Apr '12 11:01:15 AM by MorganWick

Foe Yay Shipping would become a redirect for Foe Yay.

What you're proposing sounds like a different trope to me. Related, but different.

^I hope that's you being misled by my proposed name, because what I was suggesting was pretty close to what I thought this trope was when I first read the description.

The description, at least in its original form, plays up the similarity of the behavior of archenemies to that of lovers. That's... not at all what happens in Dating Catwoman, to say the least.

That's not really how people use it though. That's something that would probably need to go through YKTTW on its own and require monitoring to prevent decay.

 12 Cider, Wed, 25th Apr '12 1:42:06 PM from Not New York Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
This trope is when mortal enemies say or do things that would look like things said or done by a long term loving couple if taken out of context. It is not subjective when Spider-man tells his arch nemesis it feels like he's the only one trying to make the relationship work or when John Cena mistakes Randy Orton's We Can Rule Together speech for asking him out on a date.

Dating Catwoman is when the two are you know, actually romantically involved but still enemies. I guess they are related tropes but they are not the same thing. Foe yay is much more likely to be Played for Laughs, if the page examples didn't make that obvious enough.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
 13 Septimus Heap, Sat, 12th May '12 4:04:46 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I rather think that this should be renamed to Foe Yay Subtext or something similar and Foe Yay be disambiguated between Foe Yay Shipping and the subtext trope. Opinions?

 14 Septimus Heap, Tue, 15th May '12 11:35:46 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Made the crowner

 15 lu 127, Thu, 17th May '12 2:52:33 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
With Mod Hat On
Crowner hooked.
''信じなさい それわ貴方だけの物''
 16 Willbyr, Mon, 11th Jun '12 9:51:03 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Calling crowner in favor of the suggested actions on the trope. Make it so.
 17 Septimus Heap, Fri, 15th Jun '12 5:43:25 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Bumping here for more votes and more name suggestions.

 18 jkbeta, Fri, 15th Jun '12 6:03:39 AM from right behind you Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Enemies attract?

 19 Spark 9, Fri, 15th Jun '12 6:33:51 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
[up] I like that one.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
Yeah, that's pretty decent. Better than the other option at least.

 21 Septimus Heap, Fri, 15th Jun '12 8:12:03 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Subtext Between Enemies may make more sense here. Enemies Attract sounds like an euphemism for ... what?

 22 johnnye, Wed, 20th Jun '12 4:44:51 AM from Brighton, UK Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Subtext Between Enemies is a terrible name. "Subtext" does not mean "romantic subtext", so it's misleading to people who don't know what the word means (especially with all the other "X Yay" tropes being renamed "X Subtext") and an uninstructive name for those who do (There's plenty of subtext in the relationship between Moby Dick and Ahab, but it's not Foe Yay.)

What about Foemance?

edited 20th Jun '12 4:50:38 AM by johnnye

Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor, so Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
 23 Septimus Heap, Wed, 20th Jun '12 4:52:02 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
[up]Did you read the previous crowner? It explicitly said "subtext between enemies". Also, the name was derived from Homoerotic Subtext.

Foemance as "romance with foe", i.e explicit is supposed to be Dating Catwoman.

edited 20th Jun '12 4:52:49 AM by SeptimusHeap

 24 johnnye, Wed, 20th Jun '12 5:20:36 AM from Brighton, UK Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
[up]It's romantic subtext between enemies. "Subtext between enemies" on its own doesn't tell you anything. And the fact that the phrase came up as a placeholder in a previous discussion doesn't give it any weight at all, IMO. That discussion was specifically about romantic subtext, in that context people could be expected to fill in the blanks. In the neutral context of a trope name, they can't.

Foemantic Subtext, then?

edited 20th Jun '12 5:23:21 AM by johnnye

Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor, so Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus.
 25 Septimus Heap, Wed, 20th Jun '12 5:25:14 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Foe Romance Subtext. "-mantic" has a different meaning than "romantic"

Alternative Titles: Foe Yay
11th Jun '12 11:26:27 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Previous crowner here

Note: This trope is for romantic subtext. Anything denoting explicit romance is misleading and not recommended
Total posts: 67
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