Not Tropeworthy: Press Start To Game Over

Here's a page that needs help. I see three conflicting definitions on Press Start to Game Over.

According to the header, it is the combination of Non-Standard Game Over and The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard. Frankly I'm not sure what cheating has to do with anything, but it's right there at the top.

According to the rest of the header, it's any game where you can die right at the beginning and where you get a Non-Standard Game Over for doing so.

According to the examples, it's simply any game where you can die near the beginning of the game, including several games where you can simply die at any place period, and for some reason Chess is included.

So it strikes me that most of the examples are wrong, and the header is wrong, and I'm not convinced that this is really a distinct trope from Non-Standard Game Over. Thoughts please?

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

I think a game in which, under normal gameplay conditions, it is possible to die on the first turn is tropeable.

Reading it, I don't see a requirement for a Non-Standard Game Over; it's mentioned in connection to "extremely contrived stupidity" and "unwinnable user-created content", which are otherwise disallowed.

It could use a tighter definition, perhaps.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

The name is awful, it's yet another of those cutesy in-jokey clever-at-the-expense-of-clarity titles. The trope itself seems valid and there are plenty of examples that seem to match the description. I think it should be clearer that it's a Nonstandard Game Over, though; chess would seem to be a poor example given that there is no Special Loser punishment for getting trapped in a Fool's Mate; you just feel like an idiot.

edited 29th Feb '12 12:37:48 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

I was the launcher.

I had trouble formulating the last paragraph. I was trying to avoid entries like "You can die in five seconds in Super Mario Brothers by not jumping over The Goomba!" I didn't want things like that unless the programmers specifically addressed it in some fashion. (If they did, it's perfectly valid.)

In short, Non-Standard Game Over is not a requirement UNLESS you have died by mundane, uncreative stupidity. Creative stupidity such as the Fool's Mate in chess as well as clearly "unfair" deaths are fine. This is a little relative, but it's the closest I can come to articulating what I mean.

I spent a LOT of brain power trying to set the exact boundaries for this, and I admit I still mull over parts of the definition — others are welcome to try. :)

As for the title, nobody could think of a better one that was concise. I think it instantly communicates the concept at a glance myself.

edited 29th Feb '12 12:53:11 PM by DracMonster

Okay, so maybe this should go back to YKTTW?

"Dying in the first turn" sounds like a trope, but it's not relevant to games that don't have turns. Almost all platform games allow you to die in the first few seconds anyway.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

Yes I know, the last paragraph specifically addresses this though. It's not just for turn based.

Here's another way to state the essence: "Any game where you can lose or die very quickly when you were either genuine trying to play normally, or found an interesting way to lose or commit suicide. Or an uninteresting way that the makers got snarky about."

I think that sums up what I was going for.

edited 29th Feb '12 1:11:10 PM by DracMonster

I saw this YKTTW and didn't like it either. "A game that is possible to lose before it even 'starts' " is a pattern, but it doesn't have deliberate meaning. Trivia at best.

If so, there's no need to create a separate YKTTW, we can just un-launch it (it's quite easy if you know how).

edited 29th Feb '12 8:00:41 PM by Stratadrake

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.

I think there's two different things going on here.

(1) A game that you can lose before you gain control, or (for games that have turns) on the very first turn. This is almost always a result of the Random Number God hating you. This is probably trivia.

(2) A game where losing very early produces a special message. This may overlap with #1, and is a strict subtrope of Non-Standard Game Over (I'm not sure if it needs its own page, really).

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

It could also overlap with The Dev Team Thinks of Everything, if they prepared a special Nonstandard Game Over just for the clever player who manages to die in the tutorial.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Trivia would be fine, if the Hive Mind thinks so.

For video games especially, we have expanded the definition of "trope" way beyond its original meaning. Guide Dang It!, Pause Scumming and Kaizo Trap aren't really storytelling tools, and don't necessarily have "meaning" as such, but we include them because they're part of a medium that tells stories.

EDIT: Y'know, those three probably would qualify as trivia too. I think the suggestion was a good one.

edited 1st Mar '12 9:12:48 AM by DracMonster

This definitely seems like a trope to me, but I don't think it has to be a Non-Standard Game Over. I'm pretty sure the ridiculous Out of This World example is a standard game over.

I'm not crazy, I just don't give a darn!

On hindsight, the Non-Standard Game Over line at the beginning of the description was a mistake. I think I'll remove it.

EDIT: I also rewrote some of it to clarify some distinctions.

edited 1st Mar '12 9:33:37 AM by DracMonster

Yes, but Out Of This World is simply Everything Trying to Kill You. You can die everywhere, any time, and by definition that includes the first screen of the game. I don't think that's an example, just like how running into the first goomba of Super Mario Bros isn't either.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

I think this is a trope. For instance, in Nethack (my favorite game), it is possible, under rare circumstances and with the right options enabled, to die immediately upon starting a new game, without having the chance to input any commands at all; it is also possible, under perfectly normal gameplay situations, to die on your first turn as you step away from the starting square. Being the Trope Namer of The Dev Team Thinks of Everything, there even is a snarky custom message for dying on your first turn.

Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.

"Do not pass go. Do not collect 200 zorkmids."

And I agree, this is most definitely a trope.

edited 2nd Mar '12 1:09:16 PM by Ryusui

In the event of a firestorm, the salad bar will remain open.

When I saw the title, I Thought It Meant something more like Start To Save, sort of a comparison of how fast you can get from starting the game to getting a game over.

As I said above, I killed several million brain cells agonizing over the boundaries for this. Any death that seems abrupt while getting your bearings (which the out of this world one is) seems like its worthy of noting, even if it's just a warning that the entire game is going to be like that. Even I Wanna Be The Guy starts you in a completely safe area. (Until you move off the first floor anyway) so its not necessarily People Sit On Chairs even for an Everything Trying to Kill You game.

edited 3rd Mar '12 6:00:14 PM by DracMonster

"You can die before gaining control" is different from "You can die early in the game".

The former is clearly an objective trope. The latter is debatable, but arguably not objective (when do you stop "getting your bearings") and arguably the same thing as Everything Trying to Kill You. Point is, they are different things so let's split them to different pages.

edited 4th Mar '12 2:29:59 AM by Spark9

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

@ #3 Fighteer > The name is awful, it's yet another of those cutesy in-jokey clever-at-the-expense-of-clarity titles.

This name isn't clear?!

edited 5th Mar '12 12:30:52 PM by TBeholder

...And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense - R.W.Wood

No, it's not. It's not even grammatical. And "Press Start" could mean anything; most games pause when you do it. PC games don't typically have a Start button, either. So you're missing on three counts.

On the People Sit On Chairs thing, let me clarify a bit. "You can die in a video game" is PSOC for the most part, or so universal as to be notable only for its absence. It's assumed in just about every genre other than puzzle/family games. "You can die in the tutorial/intro" is an interesting fact, and definitely not as universal as the above, but I'm not sure if it's really a trope — tropes have some kind of meaning other than just stuff that happens because you weren't skillful enough. You can die in the first level of Donkey Kong or Super Mario Bros, but that's expected and is hardly unusual.

"You can die in the tutorial/intro" and get a Nonstandard Game Over or The Many Deaths of You style message is a trope. The question is whether it's sufficiently distinct from either of those. It's certainly a subtrope. Its converse — you have immunity from death or significant failure in the tutorial — is also a trope because it's a specific design choice.

edited 6th Mar '12 8:21:12 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Game Over pretty much describes "you can die in a video game", or at least the most common variant of it.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.

Game Over is definitely a trope and has been since the very first video games ever. It's a genre convention. However, it's not precisely the same thing as "you died in a video game".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

The most common variant is probably "you lose a life and return to the last checkpoint". Indeed, several of the examples on the page aren't a game over, but are "you lose a life" or "you reach one out of Multiple Endings".

I think we should put up a page action crowner, let people add their definition to that, then vote on which definition makes the most sense. Then afterwards, rename the page if necessary to match the definition.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!

A Game Over does not mean "You Died" in all video games... You can run out of time, fail an objective etc.

Some games don't even game over if you do die... IE Dragon Quest if you die you get sent back to the last church you visited with half the gold you were carrying gone (the stuff in the bank is safe.) there is literally no Game Over screen and it is an RPG. (Death Is a Slap on the Wrist is the trope name for that iirc.)

Now getting a Game Over in the first level or battle and such I do think is trope worthy generally most games make it very hard to Game Over the first battle IE: Final Fantasy X you can't die in the first boss fight it only uses Demi (%age based damage that rounds down so at one HP it would do 0 damage.) Shadow Hearts From The New World gives you one lifeline in the first few battles if you lose your butler shows up and wins the battle for you.

(I have seen vids of Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne Hard Mode where a guy got a Game Over in the first battle of the game without even getting a turn Back Attack Crit, Crit Game Over screen... Never even saw a Save Point or really anything.)

edited 6th Mar '12 9:37:54 AM by Raso

Sparkling and glittering! Jan-Ken-Pon!

An early boss fight where you can't lose is a different trope, i.e. Warm-Up Boss. Having some kind of protection early in the game is also a different trope.

Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!