I have some issues with this trope:

• This trope is way too broad in its current use. Fast, strong, and durable? Yeah, that describes way too many heroes that run, fly, and punch. I suggest that this trope be limited to a "comparative" purpose, like Jack of All Stats, which is only good for Video Games. This means that it should explicitly state that certain characters are faster, stronger, and more durable than others.
• I think the subversion nature of this trope should be split into other tropes. "Fast-moving Big Bruisers" should become a trope called "Faster Than He Looks" and "Hard-hitting Speedsters" should become a trope called "Stronger Than He Looks".

I hope this can be fixed.

We fixed this trope before to the current definition, didn't we? Does anyone have a link to the old TRS thread?

edited 13th Feb '12 2:05:40 PM by ccoa

Here.

Jack of All Stats and stat comparisons only working for videogames is bullshit. Anything where combat capability can be divided up between various statistics and compared in some way to be balanced (in non gameplay cases, this is generally cost or something) against each other.

I'll admit, even as a hardcore gamer, I've never been totally confident about what this trope is supposed to be. Is it about someone who is like a Jack of All Stats but with really absurdly good stats instead of average ones (many legendary Pokemon fall into this, with even their weakest stats being okay)? Is it about someone who is fast and powerful, but falls apart in one hit should they get hit?

Looking at the "power triangle" (with the vertices of power, toughness, and speed), I think it might be instructive to look at what tropes fit the various shapes it can take:

• Miserable in all three: Joke Character
• Good attack, bad defense and speed: Glass Cannon
• Good defense, bad attack and speed: Stone Wall, toughness-based
• Good speed, bad attack and defense: Fragile Speedster, and possibly the agility-based Stone Wall (for example, the Minimize/Recover stalling Starmie in Pokemon).
• Good attack and defense, bad speed: Mighty Glacier
• Okay in all three: Jack of All Stats
• Mediocre in all three: Master of None

The way I see it, the confusion lies in the fact that Lightning Bruiser is used for both "Good in all three" and "Good attack and speed, bad defense." These are two different types (although against weaker competition, they can generally be played the same) and probably should each have their own trope.

I'd consider also looking more about when speed and defense meet, except I think it might be Too Rare To Trope. Probably because most people wouldn't have fun playing a character like that (though I've certainly had fun in games effectively doing that in the few that allow it).

edited 14th Feb '12 8:45:47 AM by 32_Footsteps

The first one.

Actually, slightly different—the first one, but only for those three stats. The Lightning Bruiser is above average in speed, defense, and offense. This could make him a Game Breaker sort of thing like in Pokemon, but it's also common to balance it out by having him sacrifice a fourth stat, such as range, or by giving him an additional drawback, like having him attack only every other round (Slaking is a Lightning Bruiser) or increasing the unit cost.

Glass Cannon and Lightning Bruiser are mutually exclusive. The description is very clear that durability is a prerequisite.

edited 14th Feb '12 9:05:09 AM by troacctid

I think we actually might need a Trope Transplant, then - to me, the term Lightning Bruiser indicates the attack and speed portions, but not the defense portion of the trope. I'd prefer a term like Master Of All Stats for the "good at all three" version.

We use "bruiser" to mean someone who is good at attack and defense for other tropes, like Genius Bruiser or Boisterous Bruiser.

I think we need two or three more tropes.

The problem, in my eyes, is Fragile Speedster compare to things like Mighty Glacier. Speedster only refers to two skills, speed and toughness, as compared to Mighty Glacier which refers to three. We need to split Fragile Speedster into speed with bad defense and attack and another one with good speed and attack but poor defense (similar to a Glass Cannon, which is similar).

We also need a trope where the character has superior fighting stats but has some other crippling effect compared to other fighters like a time limit or no combos or something.

Fragile Speedster doesn't care about attack power at all. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We don't have to shoehorn everything into three stats that might not all apply.

Deboss means that the Fragile Speedster trope refers to high speed and low toughness.

edited 14th Feb '12 9:42:10 AM by troacctid

Wait... the "bruiser" part of Genius Bruiser and Boisterous Bruiser make no reference at all to the defensive skills of either. It merely states that the two are fighters. There's nothing to say that either can't have poor defense at all (or, to eliminate the double negative, a poor defense is possible for both tropes).

"Speedster" does not imply toughness in either direction. It only describes the character's speed.

edited 14th Feb '12 9:40:08 AM by 32_Footsteps

I realize that it doesn't have to refer to all three stats, but that's how several of our stat comparisons work, so it's getting shoehorned in. I generally see Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon as the combo of choice.

Fragile Cannon?

There is Glass Cannon; these are both high-defense.

We don't need to change the name. Just refine the definition. And yeah, I had always assumed it focused on power without cost to speed. I always saw it as a trope that handled two inverted qualities: something massively powerful that was still insanely quick or something insanely quick that was still massively powerful.

Essentially, we have a six group of goods and bads 2+1- for each skill and 1+2- for each skill. It should also be noted that these are explicitly oriented toward balance, so you can't use Fragile Speedster to mean someone with very high "dodge" skill that uses an RNG to determine whether or not an attack hits.

. . . Huh?

People are comparing things like Mighty Glacier and Lightning Bruiser (which make statements about three stats) and things like Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon (which make statements about two stats). I think we need a set to round out one set or the other.

Is there an index these things are on, which explains their relationship?

It's probably a Balance related trope.

Ah, it's over on Competitive Balance.

edited 15th Feb '12 9:05:31 AM by Deboss

The problem is, Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon as tropes in media, don't care about that third stat and never have. Splitting Fragile Speedster into good power, bad power, and ok power, would suddenly take it from trope, to not a trope, just some people trying to rank fighting game characters. Power is completely irrelevant to the trope as it works in media.

edited 15th Feb '12 9:24:02 AM by shimaspawn

Well, there's more than gameplay balance to be had. Particularly when it comes to fighting series, as it's common for a fighter to prefer one fighting style over another that causes it.

There is, but those tropes are much broader than fighting games. In most of the examples the third stat is sort of nebulous outside of the fighting game ones. Perhaps subtropes might give you what you're looking for better.

Or possibly supertropes that aren't gameplay specific.

The current tropes aren't gameplay specific. Splitting them would make them that way. Leave those two alone. Make subtropes if you need to.