Dubious Entries/Possible Fan Myopia: Lead Bassist

Good news: the Lead Bassist page is getting a steady stream of additions. Bad news: several of the entries are a little suspicious. Now, I'm not qualified to judge who's notable in every genre of music, but would also like to protect the page from Fan Myopia run wild. If anyone can look at some of these entries with a semi-critical eye—especially those dealing with experimental music, country, and the niche-ier metal genres—I'd be highly grateful.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones

This seems a lot like a YMMV type of trope. "How well someone is known" seems like textbook Audience Reaction.

Fight smart, not fair.

"For one reason or another, he’s better-known than the band’s lead guitarist, or even the lead singer." This is a key element of the trope right?

I'm not sure on a lot of the examples but these are ones that I would probably consider legit:

• Cliff Burton - Virtuoso is valid
• Kim Deal - the member of the band I most recognise
• Kim Gordon - ditto
• Lemmy Kilmister
• Paul Mc Cartney
• Sid Vicious
• Roger Waters - (don't listen to Pink Floyd but recognise the name...)
• Pete Wentz - don't like Fall Out Boy but he's the only member of the band I know who he is
• perhaps Joe Lally of Fugazi, though I'm not sure if it's a type D example as they are punk/hardcore rather than "this bassist plays jazz, funk, African folk music, etc., genres in which the bass cuts a larger figure—sometimes even a central one." Don't know enough about Fugazi to be sure whether thi's guy is an example or not though.

I'd Dispute:

• Melissa Auf Der Maur - She was in a band with Courtney Love. She is not more well known than Courtney Love. Neither is she more famous than that guy from Smashing Pumpkins who I can't remember his name [[*hottip: The reason I know Melissa and not this guy is Fan Myopia]]
• Twiggy Ramirez - surely Marylin Manson counts as the face of Marylin Manson?

Also some of these don't specify the band these people are from, they really should at least write it or Pothole it?

I don't know whether any of that helps but...

Billy Corgan is entirely the face of Smashing Pumpkins. Melissa hardly ever gets a mention.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Fair enough. And full disclosure: the Melissa auf der Maur entry is entirely on me [hang head]. She, and probably the Marilyn Manson guy, sneaked in on an underexamined sentiment: that being marginally more recognizable than the band's unrecognizable guitarist qualifies you (and that wasn't even true of auf der Maur in Smashing Pumpkins). Believe I'll delete both.

edited 6th Jan '12 12:32:30 PM by Jhimmibhob

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones

And yes, the subject won't bear much quibbling before falling into a pit of YMMV-grade relativity. I just don't want the page to sag under the weight of examples from some Troper's brother's friend's band, or to skew indie to the point of unusability. For example: has anyone other than Arif Mirabdolbaghi's mother heard of him? I dunno.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones

"Band led by bass guitarist" is not unheard of, and neither is "well known bassist from outside the scope of whomever they played bass for". It just needs a trim.

Dude, seriously?

Anyone mentioning Paul McCartney on a list as "A, B, and C" is just begging for an argument with other Beatles fans, especially Lennon's fans. McCartney doesn't even exclusively play bass as a solo artist.

edited 10th Jan '12 6:39:25 PM by SeanMurrayI

Yeah, I think Paul Mc Cartney is a dubious example. On one hand, he could be possibly called one of the two "faces" of The Beatles. On the other hand, he can't be called the most well-known Beatle.

A lot of the examples simply seem to be "wow, you might actually have heard of the bassist in this band, rather examples where the bassist is the lead.

• Jack Bruce (bassist for Cream) is not better known than guitarist Eric Clapton. (Note which one already has an article here.)
• John Cale (keyboardist/bassist for Velvet Underground) is not better known than guitarist Lou Reed (again, note which one has an article).
• Jaco Pastorius (of Weather Report). The band was mainly Wayne Shorter and Joe Zawinul, though Pastorius was a big influence on their sound when he joined.
• Tina Weymouth (of Talking Heads and Tom Tom Club). David Byrne was leader/dictator/face of the former, and the latter was shared equally with her husband Chris Franz (another Talking Heads alumnus).

That's just four I spotted on a quick glance. I'm fairly sure I could eliminate a lot more if I looked in detail.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.

Oh, good, everyone already said what I had to say about the Paul Mc Cartney example.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.

Type D is "plays anything other than rock"? Really? I tend towards Lumping and think this should be more restricted.

edited 10th Jan '12 11:46:53 PM by rodneyAnonymous

Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.

I dunno, I'd consider a lead bassist when the bass guitar gets it's own solo or prominent part in a song rather than the lead guitar. Like when the bass carries most of the melody. Isn't that what being a lead guitar is about? I don't know if the term has anything to do with being well known.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

My first impression of the name was that a lead bassist would imply a second bassist in the band playing a supporting rhythm for the other bassist to lead.

EDIT: I also don't understand "Type C" covering people who are better known for "non-musical reasons". If they're better known for anything that has nothing to do with music (or actually playing bass) then what does them being a bassist have to do with anything?

edited 11th Jan '12 8:18:03 AM by SeanMurrayI

Type C means that while the bassist may not sing or be acclaimed for his playing style, he's well-known for composing (I only ask how's that a "non-musical reason"?) or just being a memorable person enough to achieve Face Of The Band status (Sid Vicious, Pete Wentz).

But yes, the examples are truly out of control. For truly valid examples, along with Often Partisan's list, I'd add Steve Harris, Flea and Murdoc (and arguably Nikki Sixx, as he's the lead composer), plus anyone who's either the lead singer (Sting, Tom Araya) or a major part of the Vocal Tag Team (Gene Simmons).

"Type C" mentions nothing about composing anything, and that sounds more like a "Type A" if that.

Sid Vicious also wasn't The Face Of The Band, I don't believe (That would have been Johnny Rotten). He just got a lot of media attention for being a junkie who was too incompetent to even play his instrument (guitarist Steve Jones claims to have recorded all the bass lines on the Sex Pistols' one album because Sid was too fucked up on heroin all the time), for covering a Frank Sinatra song as a "solo artist" (on which he didn't play bass), and for possibly stabbing his girlfriend and fatally overdosing soon afterward.

edited 13th Jan '12 12:16:41 PM by SeanMurrayI

Jaco Pastorius recorded two solo albums. I suggested Jaco (back when the trope was still in ykttw) based on those; I wasn't making any claim about his work with Weather Report.

I didn't write any of that.

Sean Murray: I thought composing was part of Type C because the first reason is "Being a founder or guiding creative spirit of the band". And all this controversy still made Sid Vicious the most remembered Pistols member (even more than the singer!) - and isn't Face Of The Band "the band is this guy plus others"?

And, like I wrote, I still see much of that overlapping with Type A and being one of the strongest musicians in a band.

And, again, none of it had anything to do with him playing bass. Even if we judge Vicious on musicianship grounds, he was—at best—a "bassist" In Name Only. All he was was a junkie who had an instrument strapped around him that he couldn't even play. Even when associated with a band, he has no real business being referred to as a bassist. Vicious was such a terrible bass player that his bandmates in the Pistols would unplug his instrument from the amplifiers at live shows, and he didn't even record the bass lines on the Pistols' one album, despite being credited as such. He was the equivalent of having a corpse play in a band and the antithesis of everything this page is supposed to describe, apart from "being known for reasons that have fuck all to do with music" which shouldn't have anything to do with the page, anyway.

The members of the Sex Pistols who actually mattered to the music itself (which should be the only focus on a page about music) were Johnny Rotten and Steve Jones.

Which isn't what Sid Vicious was to the Sex Pistols, either. Like I said, Vicious could've been replaced with a corpse on stage, and it wouldn't have made a difference. As far as what the intended purpose of a band is, Vicious contributed nothing towards that purpose, and Johnny Rotten and Steve Jones were a much larger, much more important presence.

The only time Vicious was ever the face of a band was during his abysmal "solo career" after the Pistols broke up and shortly before his death, at which point he gave up on the bass and, instead, just sang horribly out of tune. All in all, he was just the "William Hung-esque" public novelty freakshow train wreck of his day.

edited 16th Jan '12 12:45:51 PM by SeanMurrayI

Yes, he was not a Lead Bassist because he did not have any musical input. Yet he was such a train wreck he earned "most well-known member" status i.e. Face of the Band, with actual music ability not being a part of it. So, he is not a valid example for Lead Bassist - unlike the other guy who earned Face status for non-musical reasons but might still fit Lead Bassist because he actually plays and composes, Pete Wentz. So, at least this is finished.

And anyone who disagrees with Paul Mc Cartney: yes, he shared the spotlight with Lennon. But remember he was a total Control Freak in the Beatles last days! There's no way he doesn't fit.

That's not what a Face Of The Band is, either. For all the media attention Vicious got as a first class fuck up, he did NOT have a dominating presence when sharing the stage with the rest of the band (read: "first class fuck up"); that sort of spotlight always belonged to Johnny Rotten (and still does whenever the original lineup goes back on tour).

Again, the only time Vicious was the actual face of a band was when he fronted one after leaving the Sex Pistols. He was not the sole face of the Sex Pistols just because he was publicly known to be a drug addict at the time he was affiliated with them. I'd also note that Face Of The Band is labeled a subjective article and any "examples" would be arguable on some level, anyway, but as far as Vicious' involvement with the Sex Pistols go, it's a definite "NO!"

Also, if you're going to argue that Paul McCartney is an example, you shouldn't begin your argument by saying "Yes" to the claims that he is not.

edited 18th Jan '12 9:33:52 PM by SeanMurrayI

Understand your objections to Vicious, but the fact remains: if someone mentions the Sex Pistols, he's the name that the average groundling will most likely remember. Granted, he was a thug who couldn't play his instrument—for Malcolm Mc Laren, that was a feature, not a bug ... you mentioned the "intended purpose of a band" above, but it's worth remembering that the Sex Pistols' intended purpose wasn't only (or even primarily) musical. And it's precisely the disconnect between Vicious's notoriety and musicianship that I'd say DEFINES Type C.

edited 19th Jan '12 9:24:24 AM by Jhimmibhob

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones

And now there's another recent addition that I can't begin to evaluate: the bass player from Loudness and X Japan.

With this & other entries, I keep having to ask myself: has any casual fan actually heard of this guy, or did the troper list him because he's a fanatical dévoté who thinks each & every band member cuts a larger musical figure than he actually does? Not sure, but I hesitate to just cut the entry—that'd be a kind of inverted Fan Myopia.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones

I decided to look Taiji Sawada up... and though his article claims he was acclaimed, dunno if he's as well-known or as much of a driving force as Steve Harris or Flea (who not only are considered good bassists, but also write a major part of their bands' songs).

I only begun with "yes" to agree Lennon was just as important. Paul was always a leader, and got even stronger from Sgt. Peppers on. Acclaimed playing (A), sings (B), Face Of The Band and overall leader/co-leader (C) - there's no way to argue on how old Macca fits a Lead Bassist.

Bump. So does this trope need to be clean?