General Star Wars Thread

The ROTS novelization is the best movie to book adaption I have ever read.

In my opinion, it is far better than the movie.

That whole thing with the prophecy and bringing balance to The Force is definitely controversial. The way George Lucas tells it, the six Star Wars movies are the only canon parts of the franchise. Taking that viewpoint, the whole story began with The Phantom Menace and ended with Return Of The Jedi, because all six movies were Anakin's story. As far as G.L. is concerned, the prophecy got fulfilled and balance has been brought to the Force. The End.

However, if you consider the Star Wars Expanded Universe canon (and you probably do), you'll notice that the approach in the stories is that "life goes on", and that the Jedi and Sith have battled for 5000 years at least, before and after the movies. The Force doesn't seem to be balanced. At least that one Fate Of The Jedi book Apocalypse pointed this out, gave a possible reason on why this is so, and is apparently going to address this.

The only thing wrong with the novel of ROTS is the extra demonization of Tyranus,oh wait also Order 66 getting glossed over entirely

Seriously,I preferred Tyranus as an idealist, ultimately thinking he was in the right,and that because the Republic is corrupt he could do little else

Stover turned Tyranus into an outright bigot

edited 1st Apr '12 8:24:31 AM by terlwyth

The problem with introducting and using a prophecy like that is that we already know how the thing ends. We know that Anakin turns to the darkside and we know which characters aren't going to die. It might all be a Prophecy Twist in-universe but it has no effect on an audience who know the twist beforehand.

Darth Vader was a better character than Anakin.

Both versions of him-suit and unsuited, are perfect for a Sith. ROTS Vader was filled with rage, and almost explosive in terms of how he fought. He was a Hero Killer.

Original Trilogy Darth Vader seemed cold and ominous. His fighting style wasn't explosive, it was strong, heavy handed. He also seemed to have more presence than ROTS Vader. The room fell silent when Lord Vader arrived.

Why is it that the bad guys are always so much cooler in Star Wars?

I thought X-Men: First Class handled the Obi-Wan/Darth Vader relationship better in one movie than the prequels did in three movies. The Phantom Menace was basically a waste of time, when it came to their friendship and in the second movie they were like a father and a rebellious teenage son, not really friends. Instead of having a dialogue exposition scene, Attack of the Clones could have had a James Bond/ Indiana Jones kind of opening action scene, where you see how Obi-Wan and Anakin work together.

In the duel in Star Wars I felt Obi-Wan and Darth Vader had at least some kind of respect towards each other.

Agreed on X-Men: First Class doing a better job (although I'm Team Erik, myself).

The Star Wars prequels did a poor job of two vitally important things: showing Anakin and Obi-Wan as very close friends, and showing Anakin as one of the Jedi's greatest heroes. Instead, Anakin came across as constantly entitled and rebellious, and we didn't see enough of his achievements, and Obi-Wan came across as a carping teacher who knew how to lecture his student but not how to relate to him.

edited 4th Apr '12 10:13:22 AM by WarriorEowyn

One idea: They could have shown Anakin as the paragon, a rising young hero who is looked up to by the rest of the order. He would start out like this, with no origin story beforehand. The main viewpoint character wouldn't be him, but another Jedi (Maybe his same age?) who respects him and admires him. Anakin would do plenty of heroic things, like saving Obi-Wan from certain death, and he'd do it all in a humble way.

This would make his fall much more intriguing from the onset, since the viewers will wonder how this hero of the order could fall so fast. Then we could start seeing brief glimpses of the chinks in his armor: How he mourns at his mother's grave, wishing he could save her from <Insert threat that killed her>; how he is holding a secret affair with the important political figure, and grows angry when people attempt to assassinate her; how he stops using mercy when killing those who tried; how the clone wars eventually brought ruin to her home planet and he helps her grieve over it. These would all be short, but they'd cumulatively give the image that the surface picture of Anakin is not all there is to the character.

It uses the same "road to hell paved with good intentions" plot, but shows less of Anakin to the effect of more.

I still think the entire prequel series' depiction of Anakin would be a lot better if it weren't for Attack Of The Clones. He's much better written in Ro TS, and cheesy as several of his lines are in TPM the Dramatic Irony was still interesting in how innocent and good he was.

Attack Of The Clones playing his as incredibly Obviously Evil at worst and totally unable to pin down a characterization/emotion at best really works against his character though. It's the main reason I really don't like that movie.

As for Obi Wan, I actually think him being better at lecturing but not really being able to relate to Anakin in a "master-student" sort of way is a pretty good idea - it's a gateway for Anakin's detachment from the Jedi Order, or at least it would be if their relationship was given more attention. Ro TS does a good job of showing that Obi Wan is a lot more comfortable dealing with Anakin as a kind of equal (or as he puts it, "brother") rather than as a father figure (in which he was overbearing and hyper-critical).

edited 6th Apr '12 7:26:26 PM by KnownUnknown

Now that Lucas has been chased out of Marin, California, what's the case for him moving to your country?

Personally I think he should just buy his own tropical volcanic island and setup death traps to deal with persistent fans.

http://news.moviefone.com/2012/04/11/george-lucas-abandons-studio-expansion-plans_n_1419032.html

Evil empire loses, site to be turned into low-rent housing for Ewoks.

edited 15th Apr '12 12:18:09 PM by hcobb

...huh?

(inspired by a thread on theforce.net)

So, what do you guys think the ideal watching order for the Saga is? I myself think the fullest experience can be had from the order IV-V-I-II-III-VI, though it should be noted I myself have never actually watched them in this order so I may just be talking out of my ass here. A nice beginning in media res, as it were, ESB as the climactic Wham Episode, the PT as a One Piece-style extended flashback/Info Dump re: the whole "I am your father" thing, and ending with, well, the end!

edited 15th Apr '12 12:21:22 PM by HamburgerTime

For me it's IV-VI. For me the prequels are too much of an afterthought to really be that relevant to me in terms of story.

I'd say go by side-by-side like IV-I-V-II-III-VI (Three has to go before Jedi,on the grounds that the best be saved for last,Jedi makes a little more sense when you see the fall first,and simply because no one wants to end on depressing note if they don't have to)

Perhaps: IV-V-I-II-III-VI.

That way, the prequels run like a kind of flashback: after Luke learns Vader is his father and everything goes to shit, we learn the origins of Anakin Skywalker and how things got the way they were. Then, we see Luke save it all in what makes Jedi an even more titanic ending.

Agreed with Hamburger Time and Known Unknown.

Perhaps: IV-V-I-II-III-VI.

That way, the prequels run like a kind of flashback: after Luke learns Vader is his father and everything goes to shit, we learn the origins of Anakin Skywalker and how things got the way they were. Then, we see Luke save it all in what makes Jedi an even more titanic ending.

I like that. Sorta reminds of The Godfather: Part II, as we see the son's rise to power shown alongside his father's own rise (and fall, in this case).

For me, it's IV-V-VI. The prequels are just gristle getting in the way of the meat.

I think it actually would have been better if we saw more varied personalities from Jedi. Yeah, Mace is a badass and Yoda is an Old Master but in scenes where there is an ensemble, they all behave more or less the same. Like, when Anakin is made a Councilor in OTS, have a Jedi argue to Mace, in private, that Anakin should be made a Master — if they're asking him to spy on Palpatine, alienating him would be precisely the wrong thing to do. Make Obi-Wan object to the whole plan, and Mace and Yoda arguing that Anakin will be on the Council, but only as a Knight.

Isn't that the point?

The Jedi are all group-think force controlled zombies, out to crush free enterprise by enforcing a monopoly on mind control powers.

The Jedi were definitely done in by their own refusal to admit they could be wrong; that's kind of the point. They think that if they don't know about something, it must not exist, for kriff's sake. Note that Luke ends up saving the day by, essentially, ignoring everything about the Old Jedi Order's philosophy (we talked about this earlier when we were discussing Yoda).

And while I wouldn't go so far as to call the PT "just gristle," I definitely agree that the OT is the real story. That's why I recommended watching the PT as a flashback/Info Dump about Anakin.

edited 17th Apr '12 12:18:20 PM by HamburgerTime

I somehow think that if the Jedi weren't so groupthinky they would have found out Palpatine before his plan was ready. Which would have made the Original Trilogy kinda unneccesary.

To be fair, only one Jedi is ever shown to have that sentiment: the prim librarian who is inordinately proud of her collection.

Yoda certainly doesn't feel that way, and neither does Obi-Wan. Those are the only other characters connected to that issue.

Right, sorry; I was under the impression it wasn't just her for some reason.

My other points still stand, though.

And to give the Jedi their due, they were close. Mace Windu's guess for Sidious's identity was Mas Amedda, that blue guy who was always following Palpatine around. Presumably, they assumed that, as Palpatine was already the most powerful man in the galaxy, that he was satisfied, and that Mas was his Evil Chancellor Man Behind the Man. Other Jedi assumed Dooku was Sidious.

Incidentally, an interesting bit about Palpatine revealed in the Visual Dictionary is that his motive was not entirely more power for himself at the expense of everyone else, but that he genuinely believed the Sith would run the galaxy better than the Republic!

edited 17th Apr '12 3:39:18 PM by HamburgerTime

I think it wasn't quite stubbornness - or rather it was stubbornness but in a different way.

The Jedi were wiped out because they didn't know what the heck was going on until it was too late, and that I think was a result of their detachment. They were unable to truly connect to the world they were protecting, and unable to sense the manipulator taking advantage of that very flaw until it was too late.

It's kind of complacency - everything had been stable for so long that they were unable to truly understand those outside the world they already had. To an extent, the entire Republic is like this - whenever someone from the inner Republic goes to the outer rim nine times out of ten they can't understand or accept the reality there. Except Qui-Gon and Yoda, but that's why they're the best of them IMO.

Their ideology is never directly challenged - which is why I'm iffy about the "unwilling to be wrong" angle - but it fails them utterly nonetheless. I suppose it's less refusing to doubt themselves and more being unable to grasp the world outside themselves.

I think their ideals were shown to be wrong... in the OT. As I said, it's Luke's personal philosophy, not that of the old Jedi Order as embodied by Yoda, that saves the day.