Cynical about adoption.

For me, it is mired in fuzzy idealism and Unfortunate Implications. The conceit all adoptive parents are saints doesn't click with me, because in my book, what selflessness is there on this fucking planet? As a species, we're motivated entirely by self-interest; any kindness or sincerity are theatrics. That human beings could waste their money and patience to get their hands on a child to cover for their insecurities is pathetic.

Face it. You guys have been watching to much Juno.

So, you are cynical about adoption for no particular reason other than general cynicism. So... what exactly do you think the adopters are gaining such that they'd benefit from mistreating the child? You think they're sadists or getting a slave or something? That seems like a pretty strange assumption to me.

In general, I would assume that what they seek is the experience of raising a child, to be a parent, which as you may know is a big part of many people's lives. It's important to them. That's what they gain. That's selfish, sure, but selfishness doesn't imply that you have to hurt others. This isn't a zero sum game. They may not be saints, but they're certainly people, and people have certain emotional needs they like fulfilled, most of which do not automatically cause pain to others.

Edit: Oh, and altruism is a genetically beneficial strategy that's been demonstrated time and time again in the animal world. Altruism is heavily favored by nature and the laws of probability.

edited 26th Sep '11 5:12:08 PM by Clarste

Nice job OP! You had me for a minute there but your unwillingness to spam Rorshach quotes was ultimately your downfall!

I'm usually as cynical as anyone, but this is just silly. I'll grant you that most humans are selfish, narrow-minded, petty bastards, but to say that no one ever does anything altruistic is either objectively wrong or requires such a narrow definition of altruism as to be utterly meaningless. There are plenty of examples of people risking their lives or well-being for the greater good — and yes, far more people risking their well-being for pointless, stupid, or malicious reasons, but that doesn't mean that those less common, selfless acts don't occur.

Also, why should an act of kindness be somehow worth less if you find it enjoyable or rewarding? If someone wants to raise a child, and there are children in need of adoptive families, then it seems like a fortunate, win-win situation. There's nothing wrong with doing something in your own interest if it doesn't harm anyone else; even more so if it actually benefits someone else.

There's no need to invent ways that humans suck; they provide plenty of reasons to be cynical on their own.

I want to adopt if I decide to marry my girlfriend.. I have a concrete reason that isn't mired in idealism.

My girlfriend is small, as in she's 5'1 small. She has two kids, after the first one she had to have an emergency C-section that was extremely painful for her. After she had her second child(and chose a c-section ahead of time this time) she had her tubes tied. Getting her tubes untied would be a painful and invasive procedure in an area that already has some scarring that she is extremely self-conscious about. I would never want to do that to her.

I would want to adopt if we decided to have a kid together, to spare her that pain, and also to give an orphan a loving home.

OP: Yes, humans are all selfish. Kindness isn't always theatrics though, kindness gives people warm fuzzies AKA endorphins, being kind to others is still a good little shot of dope to the brain, but so long as it's doing some actual good in the process, what's the problem?

If you decide that adoption is a foolish system that can't work, it won't work. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

Which means, stop complaining and fix the problem.

I was going to make a smart remark, but

pretty much what she said.

So because humans are selfish we're all bastards.

OK. Sure.

And as people have pointed out before in child-related topics, taking on a child is one of the most selfless things humans can do because of how apparently piss-poor they are in return. You're basically throwing away tons of money just so they can be happy. Why you're such a cynical bastard that this is apparently all just theatrics to you is a little sickening.

I mean, damn, I can stand cynics, but you're a little much. If this world is so evil for you, get the fuck off it then. I don't see you being any less selfish.

edited 26th Sep '11 7:33:18 PM by HeavyDDR

My Sister is adopted.

So is my other sister.

And My brother.

You know what? My parents didn't adopt because they wanted to feel good. They adopted because they wanted to be able to pour into the life of a child who otherwise would have ended up who knows where. Had my siblings not been adopted,

My older sister would still be bouncing around between foster homes, dealing with some good families, and some families that treated her in ways that are not good at all, until she left the foster care system with no preparation for the real world.

My little brother would still be in an orphanage in Russia, wearing 3 layers of clothing in 80 degree weather, slowly growing up until he eventually probably moved to the streets, a cynical, angry young man. He would be angry at the world, instead of the loving, atheletic, Crazy Awesome brother that he currently is.

My little sister would still be in an orphanage in Russia as well, growing more hurt, more broken, and by extension, more hardened, until eventually she went off to live a hard life with no family, and no one who cares about you.

Instead, they live in my house. My mom and dad love them as much as they do me, I can vouch for that.

Someday, I want to adopt. I want to adopt because If I can take the life of some kids somewhere who will end up without a dad, without a mom, without anyone in his life, and I could change that, I want to. Maybe I can't change the world. But I can change the heart of a kid somewhere.

It always strikes me as funny that cynical people in the vein of the OP complain a lot about other people while not doing anything themselves. Being cynical is an attitude that does not help with general human progress.

Sometimes you do good things for no other reason than because it is a good thing to do, not even for the endorphins.

OFC I am not sure that adopting a child is something like that

edited 27th Sep '11 2:01:06 AM by JosefBugman

If you honestly believe this, you have my deepest, sincerest pity.

Yeah, a true cynic would say that some people are naive and brainwashed by religion and culture to behave in pointlessly kind ways that serve the interests of the ruling elite. Such half-hearted cynicism.

Why about adoption of all things, since you seem to be on a "whole humankind sucks" trip, and what exactly does Juno have to do with all this, seeing it's primarily about the girl that's pregnant, not the mother adopting the child, and adoption being a thing before the movie was made.

If anything about adoption requires cynicism, it's the effect of nurture against nature, since adopted children tend to have problems children living with their biological parents don't have (on average, one must note that adoption usually moves up in social class, so many adopted children might be worse off with their biological parents). That, and the fact that most adoptions are white parents adopting white, healthy children, despite many coloured or disabled children in need of parents.

@OP: Adoption is about giving children in need homes. Not given needy people children.

Now there is no question the system is far from perfect. I'm not going to even try to cover all the injustices that can and do happen in this thread. The world definitely needs less celebrities flying around the world looking for third world orphans to show off on newsweek. But as much as you find it hard to believe, some people are actually capable of altruism. It's possible for a human being to take a child into their home without the intention of getting something out of it.

You know if they put Changelings into adoption programs this whole child abducting thing Oberon was doing coulda been avoided.

Also, the first Highlander's angst could have been avoided for much of the film if Connor Mc Cleoud just ADOPTED some kids, I'm pretty sure the Kurgan would have orphaned some in the nearby area who needed new parents.

Yeah, the fact adoption exists makes a lot of old fashioned Fantasy genre tropes seem really outdated now.

It's not like adoption is a new thing. Animals have been knowingly adopting babies that aren't their own for a long time.

Connor did adopt that little french girl in world war II remember?

The thing is, you'd be living another person's life, another person's shoes. A lowlife's wet dream.

I don't even know what you're talking about now and am wondering if you're a troll. What's wrong with someone who wants a child adopting to get the child? The foster system we currently have is crap; a stable home is far, far better.

And... how are you living someone else's life when you adopt? I'm pretty sure all people involved are still living their own lives. Unless you have some ridiculous objection to kids from poor backgrounds getting adopted by well to do middle class people. In which case all people involved are still living their own lives, it just suddenly got a lot better in the poor kid's case.

^^No...

You'd be living your own life, but with people who aren't genetic relatives of yours.

I mean I guess hand-me-downs might happen, but that's a given in any family that doesn't have four mansions.

I can't make sense of what you're saying, either. Please clarify?

First of all, how is that scenario specific to adoption? You think most fertile parents think things through before they pop one out?

edited 27th Sep '11 4:10:39 PM by Vellup

I also sort of doubt a "lowlife" (what a vague and useless term when trying to prove a point logically) would be sexually attracted to being another person.

I'm calling Troll on this one. If the OP has a point to make, besides generally expressing his low opinion of other people, he's not making it well.

Locking.

edited 27th Sep '11 4:50:16 PM by Madrugada