Needs a re-name: Yangire

For #2, we mean the trope is linked primarily on anime and manga pages, while it is used everywhere, and people don't add it because it sounds like a Japanese only trope. I don't think it sounds like that at all, but that's my personal opinion. Its pretty clear this isn't being used as widely as it should.

I always find ridiculous to blame any misuse, and even moreso underuse, on the title of the trope, becuase that basicly implies that people is so stupid that either can't even read the description or comprehend it.

Also, the switching back and forth between personalities is present in non-anime or manga works, but is not as common as in Japan, plus a lot of the times, it's just part of the facade for a Stepford Smiler or a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing (I know i'm repeating myself, not like anyone else will notice it, since I've been ignored twice).

So I don't know why we should rename a WORKING trope, that doesn't have any misuse, and it's a pre-existing term. The only thing we need to do is notice in the description the tendency for characters to act like bipolars and that the switch between the personalities is the important part and we are done.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:17:55 PM by shark33

I hate to break it to you, but sometimes viewers really are morons. It has been proven time after time after time here that a trope's name is overwhelmingly the biggest cause of misuse. It doesn't matter if the definition is crystal-clear and there's a giant bolded warning on what the trope is and isn't - if the name is misleading, the trope will have misuse.

There shouldn't be much question that the name here is why this trope's usage is so skewed towards anime and manga. The only question is whether that's actually misuse, or whether the name's defenders are right that this is a Japanese cultural trope and it's the western examples that are wrong.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:17:57 PM by nrjxll

You and Raso keep asserting that switching back and forth is part of the trope, but neither one of you has presented any evidence to back up that claim. Tropes Are Flexible, fan-speak terms (and this is nothing but pure slang even in Japan) tend to have vague definitions that vary from speaker to speaker, and it's obvious from the nakama mess that we can't just take people's unsupported word on the meaning of obscure (or even common) Japanese terms.

Even if you're right, that's a minor case of The Same But More Specific, and can be covered with a single line in the current trope, mentioning that it's a common variant.

One guy said this is Japanese only. Maybe two.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:25:56 PM by Discar

I counted at least four - Raso, shark, Vyctorian, and the person with the Japanese name on pages 2-3. I disagree with them, but this does have a fair amount of support, given that there's probably a dozen posters in the thread at most.

edited 27th Aug '11 2:27:14 PM by nrjxll

This is the only non-forum or Yahoo Answers evidence I was able to get [1].

It's in spanish but I'll translate the important part (which is the las paragraph under the Yangire subtitle) here:

And since we are going the Citation Needed route, I would kindly request you to list the houndreds of examples that aren't listed on the page, becuase you know, the trope is underused right.

edited 27th Aug '11 3:01:51 PM by shark33

The big problem here is the Yangire description on the page, which is wrong/incomplete, and leading you guys to think this is a wider trope, when it's actually pretty specific.

People make waves about Japanese stuff being weirdly specific and whatnot, saying its to narrow and can't be its own trope inside a greater western one, but that is seriously not our fault. It's how the Japanese are. They take little things, specific things, and obsess over it, and fetishize it, and assign it meaning, where in the west we just plain wouldn't do that because it's not in our culture to do so.

And I seriously have to wonder how people who are not also Otaku, who don't actually know what this stuff is, can try to assign meaning and worth to these things and dismiss everything that we who actually know what the term are saying as Fan Myopia. Statistically speaking, it's extremely unlikely that every single otaku on this site would be suffering from fan myopia. It's not just Fan Myopia, people. Jeez.

Anyways, here's the difference, as far as I can see:

Yangire: A character, usually a girl, whose appearance and mannerisms are very cute (kawaiiko cute), and will probably be introduced with cute mannerisms. Along the way, something will cause them to snap, more like "flip the switch", and they show their Axe-Crazy side. And they do switch back and forth, often acting more like a Split Personality than being bipolar, and they usually don't realize this is strange because they are so whacked in the head. This very thing is what you are supposed to find cute, not just their appearance, but the fact that flip back and forth between nice and crazy. I hate to keep using the word "fetish", but that's kind of what it's supposed to be. This is also how it's related to the —dere archetype family, and actually almost closer related to them then the yandere, in some ways. Like with "tsundere", there are two distinct sides (the Yanderu, or insane side, and the gire, or cute side), and while the tsundere's generally slowly slip into full deredere over time, the yandere pretty much turns almost always yanderu and crazy pretty quickly upon meeting her Love Interest, and may never transition into a more or less complete deredere. The Yangire, not having a love interest, usually does not have much of a reason to evolve much, and may stay equally Yangire throughout the story, or could go either way, but in general there is a lot more oscillation between sides, and that oscillation remains equal longer. Yangire also often have a screwed up past to explain them being so messed up. They weren't born crazy, which can explain the two sides (the cute side is their real side, the crazy side is their broken side).

This proposed Cute But Psycho: I'm assuming you want this to be something like a character who is initially introduced as cute, but then it is later discovered they are crazy. After that, if they ever act normal, then it's usually as a Stepford Smiler-type cover. One difference is that characters like this don't usually have a "switch". You are given hints, weird, creepy things they do, until it finally comes out they were Crazy All Along, (Yangire, on the other hand is usually pretty blatant, no one is even really trying to surprise you, most of the time, because their craziness is actually what you are supposed to find endearing). They also basically stay psycho through the entire story upon The Reveal, with no chance of ever going completely nice. This is because the "cute" exterior is a complete lie, either they are hiding their crazy, or you just didn't know them well enough to know better, (while the 'cute' side of a yangire, is very often how they actually are, the "cute" side of this type is fake, and the crazy side is what they really are). They are also usually not supposed to be "good guys". You might like them as a character, but more than likely they are a villain, (yangire can pretty much be either, and might be more likely to be a hero, actually).

That's my understanding at least. Yeah it's a long definition but it's a complicated subject.

edited 27th Aug '11 3:43:04 PM by NoirGrimoir

I don't see anything there about changing back and forth. And The Other Wiki (even the spanish-language version) is not a reliable source, any more than Yahoo Answers is. And I'm not the one arguing to change the definition to be The Same But More Specific. If you want to change the definition, show that your changes are justified. Otherwise, we should stick with the status quo, as far as the definition is concerned.

Fans everywhere obsess about stuff like this, but they don't always agree! This is a newly coined, slang phrase without broad currency, and may mean something else next week, as people in Japan argue over what fits and what doesn't. It may also be forgotten in a year, as they move on to a new fad.

As for the argument "otaku must know", I can only remind you of what happened with nakama. That does not fill me with confidence about the insight of this site's otaku.

edited 27th Aug '11 3:59:22 PM by Xtifr

Noir Grimoir wins.

@ nrjxll,

I did not say this was Japanese specific at all I said that this did not have a wide usage outside Japanese media.

Considering the first line in that post is that the description is wrong/incomplete, I think he knows that the term doesn't quite fit the definition.

I'm going to start a crowner on whether or not to split as per Noir's post, unless anyone has any objections.

"I did not say this was Japanese specific at all I said that this did not have a wide usage outside Japanese media." And that's where you're wrong; this is used all the time, we just don't have many western examples on the page as of yet.

edited 27th Aug '11 4:04:53 PM by DisasterGrind

Crowner. Feel free to add more options; there's only one at the moment.

Could you try giving at least two or three instances of this trope being used in western media that aren't already on the trope.

Has it ocurred to anyone of you that the supposed underuse in western media examples, could be becuase it's underused on western media?

edited 27th Aug '11 4:08:49 PM by shark33

Yangire in video form [1][2][3] (not as extreme as most though)

edited 27th Aug '11 4:21:13 PM by Raso

Stewie Griffin from Family Guy. That dirty rabbit from Hoodwinked. Jimmy from Ed, Edd, n' Eddy. Many, many, superheroines; it wouldn't be fair to list them all. Four examples, fifteen seconds.

No, those are characters who are crazy but have a cute exterior appearance. Stewie is at least, I don't know the other ones. That's basically a human Killer Rabbit. Yangire is much more specific.

edited 27th Aug '11 4:25:17 PM by NoirGrimoir

So, you're telling me that Jimmy is crazy? No, you're dead wrong here. And those superheroines; they aren't all crazy. Stewie became this trope in later seasons, seeing as how he's more 'quirky' than crazy, but I'll give you that one. And the filthy rabbit only became crazy after the whole 'treats' thing became an issue.

Then why didn't you add them earlier?

Yangire is more than just looking its about cute mannerisms.

Every single one of hose examples has cute mannerisms. Although, what you find 'cute' may differ from what others find cute, so arguing that end is useless, don't you think?

edited 27th Aug '11 4:34:01 PM by DisasterGrind

I don't remember much from Ed Edd And Eddy, but reading through the show's wikia, it seems more like he is a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing.

That doesn't screams Ax-Crazy to me as much as it does "Scheming Bastard".

And I don't know which heroins you are mentioning.

Anyway I never said this was Japanese only, I only don't understand why change the title of a WORKING trope, that doesn't have any misuse, and it's a pre-existing term

Who added "rename the trope" to the crowner? Nobody is saying this is Japanese specific, and that will be dealt with after we decide whether there is one trope here or two.

EDIT: Okay, the "anime-specific" line was removed, but I still think that should be dealt with later. Maybe I should have just made a single prop.

edited 27th Aug '11 4:37:50 PM by Discar

And as for the definition used in the 'split the trope' part, isn't that exactly the same as having a bipolar character that's cute? This time I'm seriously asking.

The rename option doesn't list the main reason cited by most of the pro-renaming side: not being used on non-Japanese works. Which has been checked!

Noir Grimoire said 'cute exterior apperance' so I assumed that meant 'they look cute'. I'm sorry for the confusion. Though, I'd like to know which superheroines you refer to.