Should be two subtropes and a supertrope: Goth

Most of this article is a supertrope with some Useful Notes influence. It lists the three well-differentiated and common types of fictional goth, then goes on to talk about goths in general and how their fictional representation compares to reality, and the examples contain a lot of characters who're recognisable as goths but don't fit into the categories of Perky Goth, Gloomy Goth, or Lone Psycho Goth. Gloomy Goth and Lone Psycho Goth are pretty much tropes in their own right, and should have pages distinct from the general overview of the Goth subculture.

Gloomy Goth is the trope that Perky Goth inherently subverts, in much the same way that Dumb Muscle is the trope that Genius Bruiser inherently subverts. Both a Perky Goth and a Gloomy Goth wear the highly distinctive Goth style of clothing and enjoy dark, morbid, and/or scary things that most people don't like, but a Gloomy Goth is melancholy, pessimistic, and usually a Deadpan Snarker where a Perky Goth is perky and optimistic. Honestly, this is the main one I want to split off.

Lone Psycho Goth is a Discredited Trope in the present, but it was popular in the wake of Columbine. They're Loners Are Freaks embodied in a character and wrapped in a black trenchcoat; their attitude is some mixture of Wangst and Nietzsche Wannabe. They come across as dangerous, or scary, in and of themselves - or they're supposed to, at least - even if they haven't actually done anything bad on-screen. This one could use a rename if it's going to be split, because "Lone Psycho Goth" seems a bit long and clunky; I suggest Psycho Goth or Dangerous Goth.

I think it would be a good idea to leave the rest of the Goth page where it is, and take the descriptions and the clear examples of Gloomy Goths and Lone Psycho Goths off the main Goth page and onto subpages. They could get little blurbs on the bulleted list that link to their own articles like the one for Perky Goth, or the page could be restructured more extensively.

edited 30th Sep '11 1:39:58 AM by Cameoflage

I was thinking - and I say this because I was guilty of it too - but maybe we should make a note that the page ought to just list in-verse examples only and not just Audience Reaction examples. A lot of characters in fiction could be interpreted as having goth-like behavior, but did the creator actual have the intent of them being goth? Just something I was thinking about on the way to improvement.

This.

Responding to the OP, I agree with most of that. Gloomy Goth is very much a sister trope to Perky Goth. I wonder if there is enough material for that trope to make it stand on its own. A Gloomy Goth seems like the default, and as such is currently covered by Goth.

I think there is a Useful Note About Goths jammed into Goth and that it would sit more comfortably if we extracted it.

Psycho Goth seems much less useful. Better covered by Loners Are Freaks, Wangst Nietzsche Wannabe, etc.

I approve a Gloomy Goth trope. I think Goth should just be a useful notes page.

I'd prefer Goth Character over simple Goth myself. Too much chance of Gothic Castle or some such.

Yeah, I honestly think we should purge/rename all single word titles.

Most single word tropes are Supertropes. We are trying to encourage more supertropes. These are broad tropes that encapsulated the commonalities between the many tropes that come out of them. Goth should be a supertrope. There are a number of portrayals of Goths in media. There's the Gloomy Goth, the Perky Goth, the Creepy Satanistic Goth, the Goth Because All The Other Kids Are Goth, the Goth As A Stock Subculture. Some of these are big enough for their own tropes. Some aren't. Having one supertrope to sum up to commonality of all of them is a good thing. We're trying to make more Supertropes. Not cut them all into narrow tropes.

This isn't just a supertrope for the character. It's a supertrope for the culture. Almost no one uses the word alone to mean architecture. Being uselessly pedantic is not clever or useful.

edited 19th Dec '11 11:58:14 AM by shimaspawn

And I'm pretty sure the architecture (also the literary movement) is more commonly referred to as Gothic rather than Goth.

If we're going to play the "not to be confused with" game, let's not forget the Germanic tribe who sacked the city of Rome.

And, if I'm correct, there is some discussion on the discussion page about how the Useful Notes bits spend a lot of time saying what goth isn't, how it's so misrepresented, etc. and basically reads like some goth's manifesto about their own subculture.

I'd think it would be useful to just list the beginnings and highpoints of the culture, the major music acts that influenced it, its evolution through time, and leave it at that.

edited 19th Dec '11 3:55:20 PM by ArtemisStrong

I don't want to get rid of them as tropes, I just personally feel like single word names don't have any punch or authority, so at the very least it should be Goth Girl / Goth Guy or something.

edited 19th Dec '11 5:36:19 PM by NoirGrimoir

But it's not just about a single Goth. It's also largely about the subculture. That title is less accurate than the one word title. I'm not sure we should be sacrificing accuracy for gut feeling.

I just think Goth is vague, could mean the subculture, aesthetic or a character, or the Visigoths or anything really.

edited 19th Dec '11 8:17:06 PM by NoirGrimoir

The supertrope Goth is all of the first three. It is almost never used for anything else in modern English without a modifier. Thus it is exactly as broad as it needs to be. Anything else would be less clear and confusingly narrow. We're going for clarity here. You're admitting that you get the whole trope form the title. The rest is really a reach.

edited 19th Dec '11 9:37:29 PM by shimaspawn

Eh, well you're right that it's probably fine, its more of a personal preference on my part. There are tropes that have way more problems with names that this one that actually need attention. It was just a thought, figured I'd mention it.