Not subjective: Demonic Spiders

Hell yeah, this is subjective. Heck, the dividing line between this trope and Goddamned Bats (I never really understood the reasoning behind splitting the two, other than "complaining about certain entries" was bloating the entire thing) is pretty damn vague.

In fact, this is subjective for one of the biggest reasons That One Boss is subjective - what makes these things difficult can vary greatly simply due to playstyle. For example, I'm one of those sadists who actually thinks that they make the medusa heads in Castlevania games too easy (there are easy ways to tweak the AI to get them to spawn in an easy-to-handle pattern). On the flip side, I find that I have more issues with the gargantuan suits of armor than many players (this may be because they're supposed to be a Beef Gate and I have a habit of going after those way too early).

You may find an example that are popularly agreed to be an example (the fricking sorcerors from Final Fantasy I are probably the closest I've ever seen to a universal example... but only in the original NES version, where there were bugs in how the game handled supposed invulnerabilities). But there's a difference between "almost everyone" and "everyone."

The bug in how Final Fantasy handled immunities is Fake Difficulty due to a bug, so it's technically not Demonic Spiders, because if that game was released in the era of the patch, they'd be nerfed down to the utterly unremarkable enemies they are in the remakes.

Agreed that this is subjective. A lot of players consider Mind Flayers to be this trope in Baldurs Gate. But as there are ways of making your party completely immune to basically anything they can throw at you, others will not. When the game is being played by a knowledgable, skilled player who knows what to do, they are completely ordinary. Likewise any undead creature when you have a high level Cleric in the party (Turn Undead can wipe out even Liches if you're at the right level).

@27 Not so - there are still plenty of fans who argue that the mind flayers still qualify, with the caveat that it is possible to prepare for them (but potentially at the risk of having meat shields be more vulnerable to everything else in the areas they inhabit). Plus, while they aren't quite the omnipresent menace in the Ice Cave that they are in the Mirage Tower/Floating Castle, you can still run into the damn things well before you even have the opportunity to acquire the item that renders you immune to them.

In short, their appearance in the NES version is almost universally agreed upon to be a case of this trope. Their appearance in the various remakes is an example of just why this trope is a YMMV one.

No, the fact that SOMEONE -might- find the sorcerers not as challenging is what makes it YMMV.

Near-universal agreement upon an example doesn't make it subjective. There is near-universal agreement that Scrappy-Doo is obnoxious as fuck and made Scooby Doo worse as a whole. It's still subjective. The possibility exists, however slim, that someone out there really =likes= Scrappy, or even that they just don't find him obnoxious and don't have an opinion one way or the other. THAT is what makes YMMV.

If the bug is severe enough that getting past the sorcerers is possible purely by luck, then it's not Demonic Spiders, it's Fake Difficulty.

edited 12th Jul '11 4:36:35 PM by savage

All right, if you want to split that hair, yes, it's the fact that I use "almost" for a reason in describing even the original version of Final Fantasy I that way is the reason it's YMMV.

What's actually important, however, is that we have established that this is an opinion-based trope and that we all agree that it's YMMV.

Now, if you don't mind, I'll get back to my secret plot to re-merge Goddamned Bats and Demonic Spiders back into one trope.

Okay, so people debate on whether or not its difficult? That's a non issue. The trope is supposed to be about a common enemy designed to kill the player. Nobody can argue that the demon bats in Dragon Warrior were not designed to kill the player. Nobody, because it has an unresitable kill your whole party attack and only A.I. Roulette will save a player.

Just because you dealt with them easily is besides the point because if you didn't deal with them, you'd die. You could afford to take a hit from the Slime, because its The Goomba. You couldn't afford to mess around with a demon bat because you'd get a game over if you gave it a chance too and no matter how high you leveled, it could still ambush your party and cause a game over, and sine it was a random encounter, this threat was always present in certain areas. Always.

That One Boss Is Subjective you say? Good for it. Boss in Mook's Clothing is not. Because difficult or not, if something displays characteristics normally reserved for that game's bosses, but is not treated as one, then its objective, no matter how hard it was for you.

If it can be argued that a video game enemy isn't designed to unfairly kill the player, then it should simply not be listed as a demonic spider. This trope is worth making objective because currently, the page is just "things that gave me trouble" and that is not worth keeping. That's something to take to the forums.

edited 13th Jul '11 8:03:09 AM by Cider

As you've been told repeatedly, Cider, "unfair" is very subjective. To a skilled enough player, anything the game can throw at them will be like water off a duck's back. I am such a player with Baldurs Gate. Bad luck or shoddy concentration from me aside, I'm not troubled by even Elder Beholders and hordes of Illithids. Self-imposed challenges aside, they just aren't a problem and I don't consider them to be unfair. The same is not true for many other players, who don't know the good tactics and strategies or who just approach things from a different mindset to me.

Yeah, then that's an example that wouldn't be on the page.

But maybe unfair isn't the right wording. Maybe it should be no chance you die because people have been playing dragon warrior two a lot longer than Balder's gate and there is nothing to be done about Demon bats if the random number god gives you a bad role but die and try again. That or the page should just be cut or something.

Ugh, once again, cutting every page that has a problem is not the answer. It's a legit trope - just a subjective one.

@32 Ah, I see the problem here - you don't actually get the trope.

Maybe you haven't noticed it, but every enemy in a game is designed to kill the player. That's why they're enemies instead of simply being neutrals or allies (and we've got a trope for the latter ones trying to kill you, too).

Demonic Spiders are specifically enemies that, in the eyes of some players (extra emphasis because this seems to escape you) find their mere presence to be proof that game designers are evil sadists that live on the joy of gamers' tears, which keep them young (oh, wait, that's just Keiji Inafune).

The reason that this trope is subjective is because there are always gamers, no matter how few in number, who will contest this designation. Cassias is like this with Baldurs Gate. I'm like that with Castlevania. The fact that every example could be contested by someone is the very proof that it's YMMV.

On the flip side, Boss in Mook's Clothing is not because it's actually easy to statistically show that said mook really does have equivalent stats to a boss (the trope pic is an excellent example - Final Fantasy I came with a bestiary that showed that Warmech had roughly the same stats as the Final Boss, yet was a wandering encounter).

To be fair, I acknowledge the great difficulty relative to most other enemies in BG, so I can certainly see why they're considered this trope. I wouldn't even argue that they fit really, I'm happy to say that Elder Beholders and Illithids do. But it's still hard to objectively quantify "harder than most other enemies" when certain abilities/equipment set ups (like the ones that entirely nullify the attacks of said) can change things around. That makes it a matter of circumstances and player choices to a degree, and building a trope around a list of specific exceptions of that nature isn't a good idea.

@Footsteps: Actually, that trope pic does fail to depict why Warmech is a Boss in Mook Clothing ... but that's another topic.

edited 13th Jul '11 12:58:00 PM by Stratadrake

EDIT: Disregard

edited 13th Jul '11 12:56:08 PM by CaissasDeathAngel

If you're talking about an enemy that is literally unfair, though, do you need a trope that isn't covered by The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard / Fake Difficulty / Boss in Mook Clothing / etc.

There's an (old) game I was replaying recently that has Demonic Spiders near the end — essentially, Prestige Classed enemies that turn up as random mooks, except they don't even have to follow the rules your characters would if they took the same class. They can start whaling on you with their strongest abilities without building up to it. If you're unlucky, they can slam you with them before you've had any time to prepare, and if you're really unlucky this can mean a Total Party Kill even with everyone at full health.

But it would seem that The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard takes care of the technical aspect there. If you're up against something that is constantly hitting you with save or die spells that's Fake Difficulty. Those areas are covered. What's left is the auuuugh you sons of bitches I swear I'm going to shove this controller up your— you get the idea.

Yeah, I suppose. If we just stripped it bare we would get a clone of The Computer Is a Cheating Bastard or Fake Difficulty.

My original intent was that if the Goomba could be objective so could demonic spider, but I've given up now, you win. I'll just search for other objective tropes to substitute it with.

If this is done, I'll holler for a lock.