not a trope: Cookie Cutter Cuties

Characters and Casting

Paratext Tropes

If the things listed in those indexes are tropes (and most of them are - DVD Commentary is, for instance, and that's not a storytelling device), we should be able to find a trope in here as well.

edited 5th Sep '11 3:19:47 PM by Antheia

I sincerely think the following is on-topic. If it's considered not to be, my sincere apologies, I did not intend it that way.

I agree that maybe the page has a place as a Useful Notes page rather than as a trope, but I know there's a lot of debate over what's considered worthy of a Useful Notes page and what's considered someone just pushing their own personal agenda.

Mostly, I kind of understand the argument that there IS a trope buried somewhere here, but I'm struggling with wording it. All Actresses Are Beautiful? All Actresses Are Glamorous? That honours the concept that in order to have a successful career - hell, in order to just pay the bills from month to month - the workaday jobbing actress IS under pressure to look a certain way, and it would be disingenouous to deny that. When characters who are actresses, especially TV and film actresses, are presented in narratives, they do tend to look this way - gorgeous, slender, toned, tanned, manicured and lacquered, well-groomed.

But this then kind of starts to blur into the issue about how because the vast majority of working actresses are kind of uniform in their beauty, you do get Hollywood Homely and Hollywood Pudgy and other things like actresses who look WAY too healthy and beautiful playing impoverished drugged-out crack whores or whatever.

So yeah, that's my suggestion, although I know it will probably be thumped for not being on topic, or not intelligent enough for this forum. Firstly, if this stays around then it's better suited as a Useful Notes page as I agree it's not a trope. But there is a trope being referenced here, and while I'm not experienced enough on this site to articulate it properly, my bad wording of it would be something like All Actresses Are Beautiful/Gorgeous/Whatever Term Is Agreed Upon.

Examples for something worded like this would be instances in narratives where a character who's an actress is cast in a role she's "too pretty" for, maybe, or when an actress character is presented as the physical type above, or when a character aspires to be an actress but is told they're not beautiful enough. Or when it's explicitly stated that when a male character aspires to make it big in Hollywood part of his reasoning is because of all the gorgeous women, or in narratives where someone references the "casting couch" and the bevies of babes who'll bed a producer in order to score a role, or scenes at Hollywood parties where there are background characters who are clearly Hot Actresses. Like I say, I stress that I know this isn't clearly thought out.

Like I say, I know this probably isn't a smart enough suggestion for this forum. I'm sorry.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:57:42 PM by raisingirl83

I'm not sure what you're worried about since you're suggesting possible alternatives.

Unwarranted off-topic rants are not helpful to this discussion.

edited 5th Sep '11 4:53:56 PM by Insignificant

I think the problem is that you're insisting that the trope is somehow inherently offensive when so far as I can tell it's basically just about how performers try to conform to the beauty standard because it gets them more roles.

We've already established that the current article is nothing but complaining. We're trying to find a trope here.

I'm just saying that I don't see one here because a casting trope involving Hollywood's actresses looking similar to one another would have no valid examples without Word of God.

Yeah. My problem was that Alrune seems to still want it to contain the complaining.

Oh. I thought you were talking to me. Never mind.

raisingirl83, I largely agree with what you've said, though we're not really discussing a situation where all Hollywood actresses are attractive, but one some of them are attractive in the same way to fit a certain definition of "attractive"

That said, it is either an in-universe trope as I've already suggested, or a Useful Notes page (also as I've suggested, earlier in the thread).

Good post. I don't think there's anything wrong with the trope, maybe the main page is ranty but that can be edited. If it needs a new name, Uniform Beauty is a good start.

Hollywood Homely is not trope. Also, I agree with Insignificant if there needs to be verification from from the creator it no longer a trope, it's just trivia. You guys are say that "there's a trope underneath" the negativity but aren't being very clear on what the trope is. It just seems like you guys what a page for skinny white actresses.

edited 5th Sep '11 7:36:54 PM by captainpat

Things we can agree on, I hope:

• due to industry expections, film actresses are skinny, glamorous, and beautiful, conforming to the contemporary beauty standards
• due to the powerful stand of fashion today, people of renown and wealth are expected to follow the ever-changing trends to remain credible
• thus, on top of physically looking similar, the film actresses are also highly likely to have similar hair, dress, and make-up styles at any given time

I think this is what Cookie Cutter Cuties boils down to. The first bullet point is a Casting Trope, but the other two I'm not convinced about. The third, however, is what Cookie Cutter Cuties is trying to get across.

edited 5th Sep '11 11:50:23 PM by peccantis

That first bullet does not sound like a casting trope. It's not noting any specific pattern replicated across works, it's just a business trend.

That first one is covered by Hollywood Thin mostly although that it's taken to the extreme.

edited 6th Sep '11 4:04:59 AM by Raso

None of those three bullet points are tropes, casting or otherwise. They're just general interpretations on how celebrities tend to look, not to mention subjective.

Ok, people seem to embrace the list as non-tropes. But do we have a concensus on that those three bullets are everything Cookie Cutter Cuties is about? If that's the case, we've just proven CCC as not a trope.

I do agree that your three bullet points sum up what CCC is about. And since none of them qualify as tropes, that would mean that CCC is, in fact, Not A Trope.

The only two options I see is that we either cut this page, or as some have mentioned, re-purpose it as something that happens within the story.

I agree, it should probably be cut. We have Only One Female Model and Only Six Faces for similar things.

edited 7th Sep '11 8:21:33 AM by peccantis

I've gone through and deleted almost all of CCC's wicks, and I have to say it was rather stupid seeing this posted as a trope example on several actress's pages, an obvious Take That! and a sure sign that this needs to die ASAP.

This page was not, till now "many actresses fall into specific categories by looks." It was "most Hollwood actresses just look the same," with the addendum, upon realizing that this wasn't quite true, of "...or at least they fall into these three types."

If we agree the industry casts according to set types, Cookie Cutter Cuties would not be a trope. The specific types would be the tropes. Marilyn Clone and Earnest Intense Actress. The existence of casting trends though is no more a trope than Movies Follow Certain Conventions.

We should probably hook a crowner so we can get something done about this page.

If anything of the trope is to be salvaged it would be the specific subtropes like a Marilyn Clone (Bleached Blonde Hair, glamorous movie-star look with Porcelin Skin), Petite Government Agent (small stature, short hair, looks good in a suit) and Barbie Doll Beauty (perfectly balanced proportions, simple but stylized hair, megawatt smile). Not only that, listing those tropes under a particular actress wouldn't inherently be a criticism of how they look unlike Cookie Cutter Cuties. And again, you can make arguments of similar standards with regards to men. Seth Rogen and Adam Sandler are the only major male actors today that break apart the "dashing good looks with a square jaw" mold.

I'm thinking the main thing that needs to happen is cut Cookie Cutter Cuties and replace it with the common variations as listed above.

So Trivia is out of the question?

What are the options that would go on a crowner? Cut, clean up but otherwise leave alone, turn into trivia? There should be one about redefining it, but I have no idea what anyone wants to redefine it too and thus can't make a crowner yet.