Character Development Thread--Discussion

@Will De Regio: That depends on what exactly you mean by "pocket dimensions".

@kkutwar: When did Explorer of Unknowns speak in teal? I don't recall seeing teal... Memoria mea exspiravit. Edit: never mind, found it. Maequoql wouldn't notice, Moquoql has only a chance of noticing, and if she looks too hard at it, she has a chance of getting an overextension headache.

edited 17th Jun '18 9:48:04 PM by Miss_Desperado

My post is now fully complete, and admittedly I did mean for Valerie to out Arilay in my previous post. Regarding Explorer, I'm wanting her to eventually address Ora & Ira specifically so more people would know about Mael. She would initially be unaware they encountered Discoverer.

Why? All that's gonna do is derail this even more.

Well I did say eventually, and it was something I've been planning regardless of Mael. It would really just give her a reason, like how Discoverer opened their dimensional prison to prove his good nature to Ethoya.

I guess.

Also how is Dius helping in any way by literally trapping my characters with no chance to escape? That doesn't actually sound like she's "helping" the Web of Friendship at all, and it's borderline godmodding.

edited 18th Jun '18 12:06:05 AM by Masterofchaos

Seems I missed seeing Jean's post, but I'll wait for Ulf and Leone to respond before posting again for Kris, Wolfe etc.

@Chaos: I asked you early last page if Explorer making invisible walls was okay, and you seemed fine with it then. Regarding why, Explorer has no intention in letting them get hurt. She'll teleport Vindex so he can protect them from Meq.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the idea of having a demon who seemingly deliberately misinterprets everything in the most negative light possible go meddling about in this situation anymore.

edited 18th Jun '18 8:20:03 AM by Miss_Desperado

I get the feeling that Vindex's behavior does not work well with the structure and expectations of CD Ts. Maybe you (@Kkutwar) should look for an in-universe reason to temporarily tone it down?

Sure, suspicious and angry people are not forbidden, but there is the expectation of individual characters not dominating all situations they are put in by reacting aggressively to everything. And, well, Vindex hasn't really displayed more than aggression and spite. I guess it makes complete sense that a demon of wrath would see the world through the lenses of anger, but I, as an observer, fear Vindex makes any interaction not centered on his anger hard in groups he walks into.

@Miss: He'd really just be playing defense and trying to reason with Mequoql. He doesn't deliberately misunderstand, and Vindex is more annoyed Meq would sentence herself to a Fate Worse than Death instead of letting him help.

@Eterna: To be fair, for most of the thread he's been dealing with Wolfe's aggressiveness. The only times he got aggressive unprovoked were Sindar and Alice, who he had reason to view as threats to Valerie. Miron was more a knee jerk reaction, as he loathes gods for letting all the crappy things in Valerie's and Justin's life happen- Counting himself as one of said "crappy things".

@Kkutwar: I said "seemingly" didn't I? Eh, no matter, I have a dirty social Batman Gambit for Mequoql and I'm not afraid to use it if Vindex doesn't tone down his bad attitude. Mequoql is socially adept enough to stand back and let Vindex's bad attitude discredit him if he tries to interact with the Not-Chaos Hunters.

Anyway, just to make sure the misunderstanding is purely Watsonian instead of any traces of Doylist, Mequoql doesn't view being mind-controlled as a Fate Worse than Death. Greatly unpleasant, yes. Disruptive and most likely dangerous, yes. Needs to be dealt with pronto, yes. But not worse than death. When she's been mind-controlled and rescued from it as often as she has been in her native story, the horror of it is just something she gets accustomed to.

Watsonian reason: Mequoql's mental shields have a Crippling Overspecialization. She would have lasted much longer resisting her brother Sarquoql than she did resisting Mael. Doylist reason: I really, really wanted to have at least one of my characters mind-controlled.

As for Justin, Valerie, and Vindex, I'll have to think hard about how to diplomatically put this...

edited 18th Jun '18 9:44:08 AM by Miss_Desperado

Wait, shouldn't she be having a less difficult time breaking free then? If she's been mind controlled so much it is no longer horrifying, why isn't she a specialist at breaking it?

Besides that, when it comes to writing I just let my characters be themselves. So Vindex would only "tone down" his behavior if he sees a reason too. He isn't really in the mood to deal with people's nonsense, so admittedly he is kind of irritated.

How come only my characters are considered wrong? Nobody else seems to be considered problematic, and I'm just trying to have fun like everyone else.

Roleplay.Character Development Thread, The Nitty-Gritty of Participating Rule 5

Valerie and Vindex have been acting in a way that, in my opinion, is constantly riding the edge of violating that specific part of the rule this whole time. They have so many issues, laypeople can't possibly hope to say or do anything without accidentally stepping on some Berserk Button. Any power they have exponentially increases the danger of accidentally setting them off.

I brought in Shale and Arilay because I thought Justin, Valerie and Vindex needed some diplomats. I underestimated. At this point, Justin, Valerie and Vindex need therapists and none of my characters are therapists.

I personally don't have a problem with Explorer of Unknowns, precisely because even though she's powerful, she's not losing her temper at anybody or creeping people out.

edited 18th Jun '18 10:20:12 AM by Miss_Desperado

They've really just been reacting to other people though. Vindex legitimately wasn't trying to upset the Not-Chaos Hunters, and Valerie was genuinely concerned about them. Even with Nyceme, Vindex was basically just Stating the Simple Solution and being confused by her obsession with her decaying body.

Even with Unchained Devil, he didn't intentionally do anything to anyone outside his duel. It is really important to note my characters have primarily been reactive, and most of their more aggressive actions were in response to Wolfe. So it wasn't like they were harassing everyone for giggles.

Edit: I didn't notice that edit beforehand. Still, they're in the thread because I want to flesh them out, and I don't know where else to put them.

edited 18th Jun '18 10:17:06 AM by Kkutwar

Motives aside, intentional or not, that doesn't change the fact that their reactions have been bothering everybody they've been interacting with.

And as for not knowing where else to put them, what about necromancing the Therapy Room setting? You could contact Tropers/QQQQQ and/or find someone else who has a therapist character to participate.

edited 18th Jun '18 10:27:27 AM by Miss_Desperado

In the Hotel it is just Shale/Arilay/Cynthia/Moobly left, none of whom Valerie would really get upset by unless they go out of their way. Even then, they're more likely to get her retreating into herself (since they wouldn't be insulting Justin and Valerie was concerned about Maya only to get insulted).

Regarding Vindex, Mequoql is being mind controlled into evil so of course she & Vindex would clash. He's not gonna be upset with the Not-Chaos Hunters, and Mael is a bad guy. Though I should point out, Vindex is suppose to be putting off an "evil" aura which obscures his non-malevolent nature. I actually don't think anyone acknowledged the disconnect.

Hotel, thank goodness for that. Mequoql and Vindex, I... I don't know what to think.

He'll be a lot less annoyed with her once Meq is freed, and he really will stick to just defense & reasoning. He'll mainly only be pissy by her mind controlled behavior. He would also like to "try again" with the Not-Chaos Hunters, and admittedly he's just annoyed enough about Wolfe that he'll try being more polite to anyone else nearby who can sense him.

Given that Wolfe's "aggressiveness" was him verbally calling out Valerie for over-reacting to Maya and her not shutting the fuck up even when Justin tried to smooth things over - like a normal sane person would when called out by one of her team for being over-reactive - and Wolfe didn't start to get seriously pissed until after Valerie's attempt at Disproportionate Retribution and the whole UD Justin crap with Lovecraftian monsters springing up in the middle of a public place because of Justin's deliberate actions "as a result of", or at least immediately after, the Not-Chaos-Hunters trying to hug everyone, I personally don't buy a lot of the "justifications" for Vindex's behaviour.

Especially since Wolfe deliberately stopped reacting to Valerie, Vindex and Justin some time back and Vindex has done nothing but continue to snarl, make nasty comments and carry on like a complete arsehole towards Wolfe until I had Wolfe walk away from the situation.

It seems that the characters have an innate belief that Valerie can do no wrong and anyone who calls her out for her OTT behaviour is EVIL and then over-react as if every act of disapproval is an attack against her physical well-being.

It's very disruptive. How much it is disrupting the thread should be evident in the number of people who have reacted adversely to them in-story and the number of times people have commented in here that they need to tone it down.

There is nothing wrong with seriously "broken" characters that over-react to situations per se if kept in their own context, but they don't mix well with other characters who want to get on with interacting, forming alliances and going out to seek adventure in a collaborative spirit - the "Big Bad Wolfe" isn't reacting in a rude manner to any of the other diverse strange, heavily armed people/creatures in the setting - but then none of them are over-reacting to everyone and assuming people want to kill them.

It may be time to seriously re-think the wisdom of trying to interact with others using characters who think everyone is trying to murder them.

edited 18th Jun '18 11:38:44 AM by Wolf1066

Wow, uh...yeah. That's what I was feeling. And yeah like Miss I'm not sure about Vindex helping the Not-Chaos-Hunters anymore considering how one of them had a panic attack over him and considering what I read so far he hasn't toned down on his behavior.

Really all I want is some sort of proof that Vindex won't act the same way the did at the hotel but so far...he hasn't really changed considering how he's angry at a brainwashed girl for being scared of him.

edited 18th Jun '18 11:50:01 AM by Masterofchaos

@Chaos: To be fair, he got mad because she partially freed herself just to demand he leave. Though could you be a bit more specific regarding what behavior? If you're meaning when the Not-Chaos Hunters were there, Vindex legitimately wasn't trying to scare them.

Everything else was just him being (over)protective of Valerie, whereas his interactions with Nyceme & Nui were mostly polite.

Speaking of, Vindex really does view Valerie highly. Justin knows she isn't infallible, he just doesn't want things to be complicated- Hence his repeated attempts to essentially buy people's favor.

Overall though, Vindex would be relatively calm around the Not-Chaos Hunters. He'll really only get upset if they think he's a monster, as admittedly he interested in their kindness. Never been hugged before and all that.

I at least want a chance to prove Vindex won't go "Rawr rawr you're all stupid rawr". He's suppose to be difficult to handle, not outright "we hate you Kkutwar".

No one is saying "We hate you Kkutwar". There's a big difference between saying your characters, by their innate nature, are disruptive - and characters that react adversely to every slight as if it were a physical threat are inherently disruptive - and saying we hate you.

I'm not even saying I hate the characters, just that their natures don't gel with a collaborative effort.

In the same story, we have a day-walking Friendly Neighborhood Vampire who has every reason to fear that she will be viciously attacked and yet her story arc has her taking a risk that others will be different to all the arseholes she's dealt with in the past.

Vindex keeps acting like everyone's trying to kill Valerie - you've said so often enough in here and in story - regardless of the fact that the worst "attack" she has received has been nothing more than stern words on account of her treatment of Maya.

In fact, so far, the only character who has advocated killing another is UD Justin.

edited 18th Jun '18 12:22:59 PM by Wolf1066

Again, his 'difficult to handle' behavior isn't, to be perfectly honest, really being fun to write with. Like with what Wolfe said about his over protectiveness with Valarie (also the hotel thing has been dragged for the last couple of pages and it hasn't shown any sign of stopping) to how he was reacting to the Not Chaos Hunters and how he is now with all of this.

The thing with Meq wasn't even going to last long (me and Miss talked aout via pms) anyway and the thing with the walls and Vindex (which, by the way, was what I thought was the only one joining the new group before you brought these other characters out of nowhere) interfering is just derailing it.

Also we don't hate you; we just want you to understand where we're coming from when we express our discomfort.

edited 18th Jun '18 12:36:28 PM by Masterofchaos

Look, I've had plenty of experiences when I was a younger teen that things got incredibly unpleasant because of people hating a character.

So I was simply stressing he is not suppose to provoke such a strong reaction. Regarding being "difficult to handle", I meant more in a Jerk with a Heart of Gold kind of way.

When it comes to Valerie's safety, from Vindex's perception he fully believes Sindar was prepared to fire a bolt of Rot magic at her. I don't exactly have a point, I just wanted to point that out.

@Chaos: But you approved of the wall thing when I asked last page, which I mainly wanted so that Meq could still confront the Hunters as planned. Explorer/"Dius" has no real intention of helping Mael, so other than the transparency and walls she's done interfering if I'm really not allowed to prove myself regarding Vindex.

Alrighty then. Thank you for clearing that up.

@Miss: Waitin on ya!