"Is my character a Mary Sue" thread

A bunch of code is hardly a qualified authority on something so subjective and dependent on execution.

Why are we still having this discussion? I thought everyone agreed that Mary Sue is a completely useless term unless you know the story the character is in. Even then, it's mostly useless because nobody can actually agree on what the definition is supposed to be.

Subjective isn't necessarily useless or nonexistent, but most of the methods people use to check are not useful methods.

Mary Sue tests can serve as a reliable indicator for one thing: if you take them at all seriously, you are not a good writer, because part of being a good writer is having confidence in your abilities.

(This does not mean that you can't become a good writer.)

I decided to use one of the tests on an in-universe folk hero/urban legend, Dead Man Walkin', who's actions and appearance is deliberately over-the-top, all in the name of fun and science. Here are the highlights.

How does ugly as sin sound? There's a damn good reason he's covered in bandages.

His eyes boiled off and were replaced with cybernetics, so yes and no.

The only thing keeping his scars and useless scraps of flesh together are his cybernetics, so no.

He's immune to staying in his grave, so yes.

Zombie cyborg samurai cowboy. I'll take that as a yes.

He's pretty springy for a dead guy, so yes.

His (self-preformed) cybernetic augmentation is part of his origin story.

Wouldn't be a folk hero without it. Besides, it helps justify the unusual number of perforated and/or bisected mobster.

You betcha.

Revenge-seeking merc and lone drifter with nothing to lose? Yeah, maybe a little.

He's done a lot more things a regular dead parson hasn't done.

Rising from your grave? Doesn't happen too often in Occupied Space.

Being a psyker, a Cleric in particular, is usually hampered by being dead.

Later on, once the Serial Escalation comes into play.

He is a cyborg. They have a habit of doing that, even when they're not undead psykers.

It's Occupied Space. Holdouts are a must.

How do sentient shards of an extremely powerful alien weapon embedded into his brain and chest sound?

Nah, it's all cool.

That isn't even getting into his outfit. God, that practically needs another list.

I found a really good video on the topic that basically describes my own feelings on what defines "Mary Sue"

edited 1st Feb '14 3:28:00 PM by Lunacorva

Hey look, a BronyCurious vid. Gold star for you, Lunacorva.

While I have sometimes had similar discussions on Superman if he's a mary sue or not. I've come to the decision that I feel he's a mary sue within the context of himself and its the situations he finds himself in are less than perfect. In a short way of putting it, Superman himself alone is perfect and good and etc, but his world is not and doesn't treat him that way, which is also a major factor in what makes a Mary Sue.

And while others can find Superman entertaining in that way, I find him boring simply because I find it hard to relate to him or care for his challenges simply because Superman himself always comes across as perfect.

I really dislike those Mary Sue litmus tests. Those're concentrate less on how the story challenging the said characters and more on just general bad characterization (eg. having Dark and Troubled Past without relation to the character's present).

Some of my characters score medium on tests, but they're actually deconstructions of escapist characters. Eg. the protagonist gains superpowers as a teen like a special kind of pyrokinesis (able to create flamable materials, then fire with it) and a special telepathy (on contact with the target he's able to write or read theit memories). The revenge on his bullies doesn't end well, which leads him to a secret organization where he works later. The deuteragonist has unusual hair (white) and eye (red) color, and pale skin (justified as she's albino), and others don't really like her appearance. She's also a Friendly Neighborhood Vampire, but people who finds it out usually fears from her, also she needs human blood to survive or use her superpowers, and more she uses them the more blood she needs (general rule in my setting that no superpower works from nothing). More characters are in development, but I want to make sure they're interesting enought, fit into the setting, etc. Also I researching Greek mythology for the writing because my story features symbolism similar to seen in Neon Genesis Evangelion.

I say the Litmus tests have some merit, mainly in that having some Sue points is actually good for a character, at least according to the Springhole one. A character having a very high number of Sue points is bad enough, denoting them as the typical Mary Sue type of character, but having a low amount of Sue points is just as bad because that says that the author is trying to avoid their character being a Mary Sue by inverting the stereotypical characteristics of one, becoming an Anti-Sue. Most of the characters I have made have a handful of Sue points, but in no way do I intend for them to be the all-around "perfect" character; I'm just writing a character. I even evaluated my Author Avatar, and I'll have you know that I only got around 16-18 Sue points which is in the recommended range. (That might be because I love Deconstruction and it's a lot of fun seeing people's ideals get tested when the going gets tough.)

They're not exactly perfect, but it's at least somewhat helpful to see if your character is a Mary Sue and what you need to change.

My character is basically a fusion of the Crow and a Terminator. Problem is, I made him OP. I forgot to give him any weaknesses-immune to Turn Undead and other anti-undead magic, invincible, immortal, and super pissed off-I wanted a scene where he marches into a hail of crossbow bolts andrips his assailant's head off. Basically nothing more than a bad temper, but that's less of a problem with an immortal.

Give him the Crow's weakness. Something that if destroyed, he loses all his powers and becomes mortal and vulnerable.

I don't like that much. He doesn't have a phylactery or a Spirit Animal. He basically exists because of a traitor in the enemy ranks casting a necromantic spell on his 300 year old corpse. I had considered slow decay requiring Serial Prostheses. What do you think?

edited 19th Oct '14 1:49:53 AM by dvorak

Okay so I'm writing a female character Named Serina Nightpelt(technically as she is a bastard she is not allowed to use the surname but does it anyway) she's very uh shapely. Has white hair,it was naturally red but changed as a result of intensive magical augmentation. She is a skilled warrior,her abilities are enhanced further by the augmentations,and has an artistic side,painting her armor with various ancient glyps she feels "represent her." However she is not the main character. In addition she is highly free spirited,to the point where many,namely several of the main characters consider her to be a bit of a spoiled child. In addition it is nearly impossible to make her learn anything she doesn't want to learn, once her uncle the king stopes paying for touters she literally forgets how to read (it not being a big deal in a medieval like setting). However she is a loyal friend to those she likes

Essentially Serina Nightpelt is the distaf counterpart to Oberyon Martel from Game of Thrones.

Well, does she share a similar fate as Oberyn?

Not sure about the exact circumstances,but yes.

So, dying a painful and humiliating death after Reality Ensues? Then no, not a Sue.

Here's a question:

If you deconstruct a Sue, is it still a Sue?

A big part of Sueishness pertains to how the writer honestly feels about the character and them not realizing at first that these feelings pose issues. In my experience (regardless of how some people feel that the term 'Mary Sue' has no meaning, I don't know what the hell else to call some of the things I've made) these feelings usually include the sentiment that the character is somehow deserving of enough preferential treatment (in the sense of how not just the rest of the cast, but the plot, setting, and narrative themselves treat the character) to the detriment of the rest of the story.

If you're just Googling some Mary Sue litmus tests and using them as checklists of stereotypical traits or using them to see what authorial feelings you should give the impression of displaying in the character without actually feeling those feelings yourself, I don't think that would count as a Sue.

This actually sounds interesting. A delusional, nigh-omnipotent character in a world that sees through her bullshit? I want to read this now.

Admittedly her death his not necessarily humiliating. And she is not delusional, she knows that she's pretty much useless in anything besides her designated role,as a badass fighter, and accepts that. I'm actually planing on comparing her to another character in my novel,who suffers similar faults,but without a trace of self awareness.

Hello! I'm new to TV Tropes, so please bear with me if I'm being an idiot etc.

Anyway, just need to inquire as to whether the main character of my story is a Gary Stu. Figured I'd go here, as I get the feeling I might be a bit blind to certain mistakes as the creator of this, and because I'm pretty sure my friends wouldn't be completely honest with me out of fear of upsetting me. Don't worry about that though :)

An important thing to note is that this is NOT a written fiction. It's intended for a video game, and thus some criticisms may be a bit different from a regular story. Maybe. Just in case 0_0''

Anyway, to start off, the setting (that's important, yes?) is a near-future, slightly sci-fi/fasntasy setup: Not exactly the same as real life but not radically different either. This world has superheroes (think how DC handles their setup with supers and that's pretty much how I'm handling it), wizards (basically works as a secret society that nobody knows about) and fantastical creatures (nobody knows about these, kind of ties in with the wizards, but it's not a major point in the plot by any means). The world is also one with a bit of a conspiracy going on, but I'll get to that later.

As for the character in question, the main character is Felix Oskarsson, a 26-year old thief from Sweden who is the leader of a highly skilled band of thieves. His backstory is that when he was young (about 5) he saw his mum get brutally murdered (a bit cliche, I know, but bear with me). As a result, he ended up with a few issues, namely an unhealthy obsession with revenge and difficulty controlling his temper. Before those issues developed though, he was a bit of a crybaby, which resulted in him becoming bullied quite often. That is what caused the issues to rear their ugly heads. In his teenage years he was a bit of a loner, as he was considered the scary kid of the school, due to beating the hell out of his tormentors in his tween years, and almost got suspended for it. In his later teen years (16 or so), he ended up befriending a Norwegian exchange student, (Didrik) after defending him from an irate group of hockey players. Didrik was a smart, hardworking student, unlike Felix, who was a slacker, so they cut a deal: Didrik helps Felix with his work, and Felix repels bullies from Didrik.

Later on (17), Felix tried his hand at petty theft, which he found to be a good outlet for his anger. He found it to be quite enjoyable, and quite often pestered Didrik to come with him (he refused). However, Didrik finally agreed to come with him as a way of thanking Felix for stealing his confiscated laptop from the principal, and found that though it was nerve-wracking, it was truly thrilling. They founded the band of thieves together after high school (Didrik had to go back to Norway but they kept in touch), getting their other members from a road trip through Europe in their uni years.

Felix's personality is quite confident (even a little arrogant), hot-tempered, typical anti-hero stuff. He is though, a bit of a whiner at times, cannot stand failure (quite terrified of it actually, and so pushes himself constantly). Occasionally a Jerkass. His friends will certainly call him out on it though. He also has a bit of trouble with commitment: in-game he has a love interest, but he knows that he needs to choose between her and his career, but simply can't decide.

In terms of abilities, Felix is a Badass Normal. He has no superpowers of any kind, is not a wizard or anything more than a really fit man. He's a Fragile Speedster type who prefers quantity over quality, at mid-range (assault rifles and pistols). He's never seen without his trusty crowbar though. He's pretty athletic, does parkour on a regular basis, and pretty strong physically, but not on par with some of the other characters. He cannot take hits well. It is important to know that a lot of the gang's strength comes from numbers and teamwork, rather than individual badassery.

As for the whole conspiracy thing mentioned in the first informative paragraph, I'll detail the importance here. Basically the world is secretly controlled by a massive intelligence and surveillance bureau (like most depictions of the government in fiction ). These guys make sure that information that's meant to be hidden, STAYS hidden. Anyway, there was a leaker in the pre-story(before the actual game takes place, if I confused you a little) who was, well, leaking, and had an uncanny resemblance to Felix's mother. The leaker was also Swedish. She had managed to evade the authorities for several years, before the person supposed to kill her found her in Gothenburg. However, that was not the leaker, but Felix's mother, who was mistakenly assassinated instead.

Wow this is a big post. Sorry!

If you need me to elaborate on anything, or add anything, please let me know and I'll happily do it. Happy critiquing!

First off: G'day from across the ditch. And welcome to TV Tropes.

Secondly: Mary Sue characters tend to occupy a "special place" in their universes whereby they never face the consequences of their failings, often to the point that they're near-universally loved despite any failings (often the failings aren't proper failings such as "too beautiful" or "has anger issues but only at people who deserve it") - except by those who are designated antagonists - and/or everyone listens to them or obeys them "just because".

If your character avoids those pitfalls - annoys the fuck out of people, including friends, with his whinging, experiences problems with his g/f because of his conflict etc - then it strays away from Mary Sue territory.

None of what you've portrayed in your sketch is inherently "bad" in and of itself, it's the treatment of the character by others in Universe (anyone else behaves like that they get shut down, your character gets a "free pass" etc) that really matters.

Hell, someone's even reworked Twilight's Bella Swan into a useable character by putting the Earth's orbit back around the sun (which doesn't actually shine out of her arse, after all) rather than around her...

Dunno how you're planning to fit a lot of that history into the format of a game, but you could have it so that the person playing the character gets the idea that due to the character's behaviour alienating a lot of friends, those friends might not back him up or help him if the chips are down. You could actually have them refuse to help on some minor issues - but have them come through when the shit really hits the fan because, annoying whinging tit that he is, he's still their friend.

edited 8th Dec '14 5:39:34 PM by Wolf1066

Please note that some of his backstory will sound very Sue-ish. I created a story from the ramblings of my younger years, saw that it had potential when I was older and then decided to fix it up. It still does have some Sue in there.

Seth is a HalfHumanHybrid (see what I mean?) and the story actually starts with him floating in an endless ocean with no limits and no surface. Every time he drowns, he sees visions, which appear to be his life (mainly because he remembers when he first came here, and his mind was completely empty). A good chunk up until 2/3rds of the story is one long flashback through this life, leading up to the events that got him here.

His mother died in a fire while he was young (cliche) which gave him the whole "care for your loved ones" tendencies. While his mother was alive, he was extremely sensitive, trusting only his mother, and was taught to never hurt others. He is then adopted by another family, his adopted sister being a major character (but not a love interest). His magical Mary Sue-ish power is the ability to "see another's greatest pains and sins".

Now is he a Mary Sue?

Ask yourself this:

Is my character challenged by the events of the narrative?

If the answer is YES, congratulations. Your character is not a Sue. They may have OTHER problems, but your time in this thread is over.

If the answer is NO, sorry, looks like you've got a M Ary Sue on your hands.

It really is that simple. Any other definition is people butchering the term to unrecognizability.

That's a terrible definition. Sometimes the point of a story is that a character can't or won't adapt. It's one of the original takes on the concept of the tragedy.

The one above, in that it matters how they interact with their environment and others, is much better.