Too many threads about trivial details.

And? What's wrong with that? Why should we actively discourage it? New writers just getting their feet wet do a lot of things that more experienced writers have found don't generally work.

But as far as I can tell, the point of this thread was either to complain about that, or to suggest that we somehow rearrange the forums to be more authoritarian about what we allow in the writer's block threads in the first place. If it was the former, it's served it's purpose; if the latter, why should we set ourselves as some sort of authority on how to write and what is or isn't worthy of attention?

When I suggested to offer more groupings to distinguish, I did not mean for being more strict. I know you mods already worry enough about looking at the other forums for trouble, and it seems a lot of work for this revision, and discouraging 'garbage' posts.

But I do not mean to limit others' train of thought in asking questions, and posting. I mean to offer them a greater sense, a greater clarity of what can they ask of others. Do they want to share something with us? Or help us get our writing on our feet? Writer's Block, as I see it, looks like a huge mixed bag of all these sorts of questions..

(Look at the principle described on being original. The 2nd paradox. Try to imagine this principle on Writer's Block topics — if people get where to ask help, then they may have more nuance to their topics?)

Unless there is another reason you wish to keep the status quo.

edited 3rd Apr '11 10:06:18 PM by QQQQQ

I'm not getting any clear idea of what is being asked for or suggested here, is the problem.

I hope I can clear up the picture in your head, what I wish to propose. Sometime tomorrow. I need my sleep now.

My thoughts on the topic:

1. A large part of this problem is the lack of description for each of the subsections. As far as I can tell, Writer's Block is meant to be things relating directly to your writing- e.g. asking for a critique on it, or asking if taking the plot in this direction is a good idea. World Building is meant to be for the building blocks of your story- e.g. a problem with your magic system. Thus, threads are continuously posted in the wrong place, and die for lack of responses (I've tested this out myself).

2. Alex's problem seems to be that he thinks people are concerned with these little things over the big problems- i.e. that they're putting more thought into the details than the characters, the plot or other fundamentals of the story itself.

This is only sometimes correct. Some people do this. However, some people (I, personally, and I suspect people like AHR) have built up the plot, the characters and the world, and are looking for thoughts on the background flavour of the world- such as the magic systems mentioned earlier. These things are important, because they add detail and flavour to your world (Look at Harry Potter for an example of these details being successfully integrated into the story). They can also point out things that you didn't see earlier- things that could break your plot, tighten it or otherwise change your story around.

These are, I believe, the two problems being discussed here.

Alex: Because the character is a time traveller, and I want to avoid having every gun set in the most recent time period, and have them all from the mid twentieth century, in order to contribute to his over all atmosphere.

There is also another character who specifically shows up in 2001 and only 2001, so it would only make sense for him to be using weapons from 2001.

And that is why I care about what gun is being used. Without atmosphere, the main meat of the story can be hampered really easily, and it's the little details that contribute to that.

edited 4th Apr '11 2:48:14 AM by MrAHR

I notice this trend too, though this definitely isn't something unique to these forums. Its more like the stuff that naturally happens more during the "teenaged" phase, once people have gone through the "Mary-Sue" stage and have become embarrassed about their own amateurity. Then they try and inject a whole lot of realism and insistent uniqueness into a story to counteract what they see as a personal failure on their part, and throw out all the bathing-babies as well.

But then again, I'm also very much of a believer in Taught by Experience when it comes to writing, so its not something I'm out to fix. Besides, the realism, originality, and detail-oriented parts aren't necessarily bad — on the contrary, it can vastly improve a work, especially when someone is just starting. Its just knowing the delicate art of when to stop. They'll figure it out as they write.

There's the fact that if you get something really tiny wrong, and your reader knows you got something wrong, you're gonna get a lot of crap over it, and you're always going to remember that one, small, stupid mistake you made because you Did Not Do The Research. Which people really, really hate going through, no matter what level they're at, and sometimes it makes them a bit paranoid.

On the main topic of this thread: plot, character development, and themes are the bread and butter of what you need to learn as a writer, and you can find details about them in any book, website, or podcast about writing — hell, its pretty easy to find out about them here too, if you Wiki Walk long enough. However, you can't talk about those things forever, or else the discussions just go in circles. Like eating bread every day, it sorta gets stale and boring after a while, which is generally the death of a conversation.

Once you get the big things out of the way? You're left with an eclectic mishmash of everything else. Its just the way things in forums go, when you're discussing a specific topic. That doesn't mean the big things can't be discussed anymore, just that they can't be the only thing being discussed. If you want more of them, create a thread about one, with an OP compelling enough for people to not only answer, but to talk about it. "Be the change you want in others" and all that.

On that last note though, that is one thing I wish this forum in particular had more of — actual in-depth discussion about things that aren't a specific Troper's work. But it never really seems to happen.

The whole goal of this section of the forum is to help people work out kinks and brainstorm ideas in their writing. What some might consider trivial may be very important to the author, like the mechanics of a MacGuffin sword or the decision-making behavior of a protagonist. It's too much of a slippery slope to try and discern what's important enough for the Writer's Block forum. If you feel a thread is flimsy or inconsequential, then don't reply to it.

Besides, a lot of those trivial, 'ego-stroking' topics serve a more important role than you'd think. Sometimes writers, especially young and unsure ones, need a little attention from others to reinforce their confidence. I'm not saying that everyone should get a medal for participating, but there's nothing wrong with people poking out of their self-depreciating holes to pat each other on the back.

@Dec:

I'm curious as to what you mean by that. Discussions about plotting, say, or character development, or the like, that aren't as focussed on the specific projects we're working on but our ideas about it in a more general sense?

I feel the writers need more attention when they do post their writings to share, outside of "How would X concept work?" That kind of thing I notice is a rarity (outside of the ongoing serial thing). It gets very discouraging if it seems nobody gives two shits what you actually write.

edited 4th Apr '11 7:47:26 AM by QQQQQ

Everyone wants to be read, no one wants to read. That's what you get in a forum for writers. Even if you can get a reader, that doesn't mean they will tell you what you want to hear or are looking for.

Writing without reading.. huh, imagine that. (I think it'll be like a conversation where no one really listens to what the other is saying. They're just waiting for their turn to talk.)

edited 4th Apr '11 7:51:22 AM by QQQQQ

Most apt analogy I've ever heard.

Pretty much, which also happens here as well, interestingly enough.

That is, indeed, how it feels at times

If you want beta readers, it's better to go to a site full of readers, I find.

Oddly enough, ffdotnet, is pretty good about this, provided you are fine with "love it plz update"

those Skinnerian pigeons will certainly keep pressing the lever hoping for food, won't they?

There are quite a few that I don't comment on for a very simple reason: they're fanfics of works that I;m completely unfamiliar with. It's not that they're fanfics that's the problem, though. It the fact that they presuppose a solid knowledge of the work that they're based on. If I don't have that knowledge, I'm hamstrung in trying to make any kind of constructive criticism.

But I recall when I made my "Hi, I'm new here" post in th4 introductions thread, and mentioned that I'm not an aspiring writer, but I'm a reader and an audience, I got a reaction that boiled down to "Good! We need more audience!"

edited 4th Apr '11 8:32:54 AM by Madrugada

Same thing for me. I can't read much fanfiction entirely because I don't know the universes or characters. Nobody writes fanfic of the things I'm really into, it seems.

Finding myself writing, oddly enough, a non-fantastic story set in the real world of today right now. (Don't worry, the fantastic stuff is still being worked on). I'll have to search a bit wider to find some people to read it when it's more done, since most of my normal sounding-boards are fantastic fiction only readers.

*waves hands wildly in the air* Here, Morven!!!

Ah, thank you! I'm only a couple of thousand words in, yet, but it may come out a little quicker since there is no worldbuilding to take up time.

There are a lot of fanfic posted here? Huh, must block them out or something.

But that is part of it as well. Niche audiences that Tv Tropes is simply too small to have.

Although, I am guessing most people are really too lazy to invest into something long term. I have, like, what, 40 or so unedited pages of my graphic novel? Most people probably don't make it that far, in terms of writing AND reading. So it's a two-way street, prolly.

edited 4th Apr '11 11:25:07 AM by MrAHR

edited 4th Apr '11 1:09:29 PM by SPACETRAVEL

I'm writing a work of fiction for the first time, and I have to focus on the tiny details. Working on vague concepts is ass-easy. Just look at the Plotbunny shelter.

Let's say you want to write a scene that will convey the universal grief that comes with a character's death. That's nice... But to pull it off with the respect it deserves, you might well have to spend hours fussing over details, figuring out whether the way he dies is valid so people with real medical knowledge won't Face Palm and make jokes about it, and asking people exactly how much crying you can get away with before you cross the border into wangst.

For me, trying to figure out details takes up a huge amount of time.

If overdoing it leads people to load their stories up with Technology Porn no one cares about, that's just Sturgeon's Law in effect, IMO.

edited 4th Apr '11 3:53:35 PM by Wheezy

@Morven: Pretty much, yeah. I mean, there are threads like "What's your opinion on X?", but those don't often turn into actual discussions — more often than not, the posts in them just state the poster's own opinions, without really addressing anyone else's. That's fine, and its fun to read up on what everyone else is thinking, but its not really much of a discussion.

Sometimes I just wish there where more threads where we could get down to the nitty-gritty with everyone and push a bit of deeper thinking on all this creative stuff, and still be talking to each other. Maybe I'm a bit spoiled from reading the almost-debates in OTC or something, but I do like it when people take the time to politely but actively agree or disagree with others, because it means people are engaging with the actual talking part. And that's way more informative and interesting than a list of opinions.