Atheist/Anti-theist/Agnostic Troper Group

So, something I should've put on here earlier: I now identify as an agnostic atheist. I've slowly begun to realize that I was only calling myself agnostic because I didn't want to hurt my parents, but after getting into an argument with my dad on it (where he accused me of being led to believing in it by my atheist friend, who I barely talk religion with). He wasn't as cool with my beliefs as I thought, though he's still very civil about it, but after a while I began to realize that I truly don't believe in a god that much. There's just no proof of his existence or lack thereof, so now, I cannot identify as agnostic. I'm now an agnostic atheist, and damn proud of it.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

I'm pretty sure "There's just no proof of his existence or lack thereof" is standard agnosticism.

Worldbuilding is fun, writing is a chore

Fair enough, I guess, but at this point I lean towards "not believing in him" more than I did previously. It's confusing stuff, sorry.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

Welcome to the club, Adric. It seems to me (and others may disagree of course) that agnosticism along is just "don't know either way" on the god question or even "no one can know" (less commonly). Some can go further to "I don't know, but believe/disbelieve anyway".

On another note, I'm writing a fantasy story in which the main character is an atheist. Do you know of fantasy that has atheist (or skeptic, agnostic, etc.) characters? I've only heard of The Inheritance Cycle having serious ones (Discworld is parodic apparently). Hopefully not flat earth atheists.

edited 9th May '16 5:53:25 PM by Fireblood

There are sort of atheists in The Song of Ice and Fire. Some representatives of certain religions appear to have magical powers, but to others it's ambiguous whether the true source of those powers is the deity they worship, or something else. (Magic exists in that universe.)

It is not clear whether any of the deities worshiped in that universe are actually real. In any case, there are definitely some people who privately (or even openly) admit that they don't actually believe in the deity they're expected to worship. Some are willing to change their religion, as well.

So that's definitely one. Most (or possibly all) of the characters who openly disbelieve in gods do believe in the magic that they can know to be real in that universe. (So you won't have an atheist character also denying the existence of dragons or a true prophesy after they've seen it, and such things are talked about as truths in the generally accepted histories of the realm that the characters can access.)

edited 9th May '16 6:16:35 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Ah yes, I noted two in Game of Thrones. It makes sense that the original material would have them too. Yeah, disbelieving magic exists in settings like that would be utterly irrational. Not disbelief in gods always however. I think it's good to remember what individual characters know within the story as well. Some characters may get very good evidence for gods which others do not.

edited 9th May '16 6:47:38 PM by Fireblood

Has the idea that magic may not come from the gods really been raised? As far as I can remember, all the characters who have witnessed Red Priest magic on a regular basis took it as evidence that the Lord of Light is real. Whether he's good and worthy of worship is another matter, of course.

Worldbuilding is fun, writing is a chore

The atheist elves in Eragon annoyed me. When I read fantasy, I expect fantasy. I want to be in a world where gods are real.

But they weren't really good atheists in the first place, so, maybe that was the problem.

I've read a number of webcomics with atheists in them. Gods are real in Gunnerkrigg Court. But, it's complicated. I believe atheism was a theme of an arc in Tales of the Questor, but this comic is not very good, so don't confirm. Errant Story doesn't have gods. It has Godlike space aliens, and a number of different types of atheism and theism. The Gods of Arr-Kelaan: You are a human from earth. And a god. The Phoenix Requiem, I think atheism was a major theme of this one. It is short too, so you can check. Juathuur, big maybe here, gods are confirmed, but I don't think everyone believed. Unsounded Another big maybe. Near the end, the number of competing beliefs gets hard to keep track of.

"Just because the gods exist is no cause to go about worshipping them."

In The World of Ice and Fire there's a bit about religion in ancient Valyria. A source (or possibly the source) of Valyria's power was its blood magic, with human sacrifice a core component. The Valyrians had hundreds or thousands of gods, however, and it doesn't seem that there was any notion that any particular one of these gods was central to the magic rituals/spells that hatched dragon eggs and helped the Valyrians control dragons and so on.

I think the suggestion (between the lines) is that the magic works anyway, regardless of which god (of any) you invoke while doing it. You have to spend someone's blood to get things done with blood magic, but I don't get the impression you have to specify who you're giving the sacrifice to. I don't recall if Daenerys mentions any particular god(s) when she burns people to hatch her dragons. (I'm not hiding that bit as a spoiler because it refers to the first book and season, so people will have seen/heard/read about it by now.)

Spoiler warning about books 4 and 5 (and apparently season 6, if you haven't read the books) : Euron's horn, presented as a tool to control dragons, kills the person who blows it. To use it you must have someone you're willing to sacrifice - probably a prisoner - blow it, rather than using it yourself. No gods are invoked in the demonstration, but of course there aren't any dragons present, either, so we don't get to see whether the horn actually works that time. The impression I get is that it will work as long as you kill someone with it; no gods necessary.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Aetol, I don't think it's been raised in-story, but we the readers/viewers see other people's magic too, so it can't all come from the Lord of Light.

war877, does fantasy mean the gods have to be real? Assuming they are, must everyone believe in them? Our world has unbelievers, so why can't another? How were they not "good atheists"? I actually find the idea of elves being atheists plausible (without having yet read the book). Elves are usually portrayed as comfortable due to magic and long lives, the kind of background that often is associated with atheism/skepticism on Earth.

Best Of, if true that makes me think it would be greater reason for doubt in terms of any gods being real, or at least more important than another. It could be (to speculate) that magic requires a certain mind set that belief in gods (any god) is useful for. This horn has yet to appear in Season 6, though it may yet.

edited 10th May '16 5:34:28 AM by Fireblood

Really? Why? I don't need or even like gods in fantasy. Or as an idea. What I like are magic powers.

The existence of gods just raises too much questions. Why do they only interfere some of the time? They're either jerks or weak. And if they don't interfere at all, why wouild you need them anyway? With gods there is usually crap like "prophecies", "fate" and "chosen ones." Also, I like to read about people, not the gods.

Gods in fantasy tend to be the Greek Gods sort : not omniscient, not omnipotent (if only because other gods keep interfering), and certainly not omnibenevolent.

Worldbuilding is fun, writing is a chore

I'm watching the show so I know it hasn't appeared; however, the subplot where it turns up in the books has now begun in the show, so unless they've changed it quite significantly it's bound to turn up in the next episode or two.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Aetol is right. Those kind of gods mostly avoid the objections we're used to (for instance, the problem of evil).

Best Of, I'll keep a look out for it then. Something tells me that will come in handy if/when the dragons ever see combat (invasion of Westeros already, please).

edited 10th May '16 6:15:22 AM by Fireblood

Yeah, but then what do you need them for? Like, why would you want a race of superhumans in your setting that you're not even focusing on?

Petty, fallible gods are more interesting than a perfect, untouchable one.

Sure. But no gods at all is better yet.

I just don't get the appeal of having more powerful entities control human lives. And if they don't control or interact with the characters, then you wouldn't need them in the story.

Yeah, unless it's a mythic story where the main characters can actually interact with the gods in a significant way, I don't like having them in fantasy settings. When it's about clerics or paladins or whatever, my favorite explaination is that it's unclear whether actual gods give them power or their faith turns into magical energy on its own.

The Second Apocalypse has an interesting (if secondary to the main plot) account of a character in a world full of magic who starts out disbelieving in it, but after getting blasted in the face with magic by an ancient immortal wizard, realizes magic is, in fact, a thing. And then goes on to become one of the most powerful sorcerers in the land. Best part is, the "oh wow magic is actually a thing" realization happens pretty early in the first book.

One of the more interesting things about it is that this character comes from an isolated sect of monks who have been cloistered away, studying logic and breeding for strength and reflexes for thousands of years, and they've advanced psychology and sociology and biology and physics to the point where any one of their members is basically an Anthropomorphic Personification of Awesomeness by Analysis, and yet they've also forgotten that magic exists in the world, making them a curious combination of unbelievably brilliant and adaptable... Flat Earth Atheists.

To their credit, though, they learn very quickly. When presented with clear evidence of magic, they immediately reevaluate their understanding of the world, because above all else, their priority is control through understanding. Once you understand a thing, you can predict everything about it, and once you can predict it, you can control it.

Their philosophy is basically a very hands-on, pragmatic obsession with the concept of cause and effect.

Tons of religious people in the book, but most of the main characters are atheists using religion to further their own goals, and as of yet (series is unfinished) there's no definitive proof of whether any god or gods exist (aside from the No-God, who definitely exists, but is more likely an alien than an actual deity... it's a long story).

edited 10th May '16 8:34:39 AM by SolipSchism

@Fireblood: The only thing that fantasy really requires is magic is real. The Eragon books, well, they aren't really good. So they are a bad example. The elves didn't believe in anything at all.

Gods being real makes fantasy better. But that is like saying romance in a story makes it better. You want it in some stories, but not all of them.

Fantasy doesn't universally require magic. KJ Parker's books typically have no magic at all, just a constructed world and cultures and history, but they're fantasy.

If there really was no magic, then I would not classify it as fantasy. If the magic is actually science that is fine. If it is simply a drama set in medieval times in an alien world, that is not fantasy.

I think the difference between fantasy and sci-fi is more about the tone than any aesthetic details, personally. Basically "if this stuff was real, wouldn't it be cool/scary/whatever?" versus "if this stuff was real, what would realistically happen?"

Any kind of setting, with or without magic and/or gods, could fit into either genre or both.

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.