Split or redefine?: You Cant Thwart Stage One

Courtesy link: You Can't Thwart Stage One

So this trope seems to have two faces:

• a dramatic sense, wherein the protagonists fail to prevent the antagonists' plan from surfacing, necessitating that the protagonists actually deal with said plan.
• a gameplay sense, wherein Sequence Breaking is intentionally prevented.

Should these be split? Or should this be clarified?

I already added a line to the page noting that it's basically the polar opposite to Sequence Breaking, but that's more fit for the gameplay sense; the opposite of the dramatic sense is more like Genre Savvy.

That video game usage is definitely not this trope. This has nothing at all to do with Sequence Breaking. It's a Rule of Drama thing.

edited 15th Feb '11 10:48:23 PM by troacctid

Giving a bump — where does the trope name come from, anyway?

Well, if the video game usage isn't the trope, why does the trope name reference videogames?

Also, the title is now messed up due probably to the ptitle system being retired.

The trope name references video games? How?

It's not a reference to video games, it's a reference to the stages of the evil plan. You know, Stage 1: Summon unholy abomination. Stage 2: Beat the hero with it. Stage 3: Profit.

...I've heard "stage" used in videogames far more than I've heard of "evil plan[s]" having "stage[s]". I thought they were "step"s, not "stage"s.

But "stage" is also common videogame parlance for "area" or "level". Me, I always interpreted the title in the sense of Super Mario Bros. where there's no skipping level one.

"You Cant Thwart Step One", a minor tweak to the title, would be leagues better in the interpretation department.

But I'm also stumbling over the definition: Is this about the heroes failing to foil the early phases of the Big Bad's Evil Plan, or that the heros do foil the plan at its very last moment?

edited 16th Mar '11 1:49:41 PM by Stratadrake

This is the trope for failing to foil the first part. The equivalent trope for foiling the last part is The Good Guys Always Win.

^ Then it's imperative that the heroes actually try to stop the first step in the plan, and fail doing. If the Evil Plan Step One succeeeds solely because the heroes just weren't around to know about / stop it, that's misuse.

Been brainstorming for titles the other day. How about Step One Never Fails?

The Bad Guys Always Finish Step One?

Also, you ought to prune the examples to remove the videogame examples. And put them somewhere else.

Is this distinct from never thwarting all but the last stage (like when you can't stop the resurrection of the Big Bad in an RPG, but you can always kill it)?

^ In my opinion, yes, that's not just a distinction but a requirement: Somebody has to know about the Evil Plan and fail in their attempt to thwart its early stages.

Isn't this basically a requirement of like, every story?

No. Besides the obvious case of stories with No Antagonist, there's other ways a story can be written to have the heroes thwart Stage One and still keep going. You can even write a story where the Final Battle occurs before the villain gets beyond Stage One at all, although it's unlikely any exist (Rule of Drama and all that).

The existing redirect, Evil Always Triumphs In The Middle, deserves mention here.

You Can't Thwart Stage One is a perfect name because it implies someone is actively attempting to thwart the villain's plans, which is the key requirement for the trope. Replacing Stage with Step is probably the only thing that can be justified.

Stage one sounds better than step one to me. The name is fine as it is.

"Step" works better because it has fewer meanings than "stage" (especially in the videogame sense, where "stage" is an established synonym for "area" or "level"), and it's also consistent with Step Three: Profit.

Alternately, "phase" would work too.

edited 21st Mar '11 9:35:04 AM by Stratadrake

Oh, consistency with Step Three: Profit is nice.

I support the change in title to Step One. It works better, differentiating this trope from the video game examples, which should be spun off into a separate trope. I also think the consistency with Step Three: Profit is nice.

edited 10th Jun '11 11:07:43 AM by forceflow

<Mod Hat ON>

A lock was requested on this thread as "completed".

Has this been resolved? If it has been, has the necessary work been done?

<Mod Hat OFF>

How would I request a name change?

Once it's been determined there's consensus to rename(as well as consensus on a new name), read up on How To Move A Page.