Do we lie to children?

Most of us here know that life is a bitch. But that's not what I remember being told in elementary school. I remember being told to follow my dreams no matter what, anything is possible as long as I tried, and the world is a happy place. I sort of feel like I've been lied to. Because they didn't mention that following your dreams isn't always as easy was wishing upon a star, that sometimes people really can't do things unless they put in a ridiculous amount of effort that sucks all the enjoyability form the task (see Technician Versus Performer for details), and Earth has a dark side. A very dark side.

So, tropers, what do you think we should teach kids about life?

edited 31st Jan '11 9:11:59 PM by snowfoxofdeath

The book that shall not be named needs to be required reading.

And the best part is, it's against the rules to have in-class discussions or homework on it. Hay Deboss

edited 31st Jan '11 9:10:27 PM by melloncollie

The short answer is that yes, our parents and all the adults in the world lied to us. But we should probably consider the reasons why they did - can you imagine being told about torture and genocide at the age of five, when your feelings were wounded simply by a harsh word?

As to what I'll teach my kids, I'll wait for them to ask the questions, and then depending on age, I'll answer them as honestly as possible without making them unnecessarily sad or Squicked. If they ask me how babies are made, I'll probably give them the "When a man and a woman love each other very much" lecture. If they press for details, I'll try not to make it too graphic, but I won't lie.

If they ask me about death, I'll say something like "Grandma is not going to be around the way you've known her, but she'll be alive in your memories."

edited 31st Jan '11 9:43:05 PM by OnTheOtherHandle

No. Do not tell children about genocide at age 5. That's just creepy.

But at least let them know that life isn't always going to go their way. Doing otherwise might set them up for disappointment.

I didn't really like it though when people told me Grandma "passed away" because I thought she moved to another house. Then I saw her coffin being placed in the grave and it finally hit me that she was now an Unperson.

edited 31st Jan '11 9:22:25 PM by snowfoxofdeath

There are rather few things I can consider my parents having lied to me about. Many of the things we consider hopeless are only so because so damn many people gave up on them, and try to demoralize everyone around them into giving up too. Very few of our childhood ideals and dreams were ever truly gone; just us.

edited 31st Jan '11 9:25:18 PM by Pykrete

I consider lying, or using Unusual Euphemisms, to "protect the children" because Children Are Innocent to be a rather ill endeavor. It will only confuse the children and give falls ideas about what is going on. However, lying, or better oversimplifying things because a matter is just to complicated for a child to understand is probably a better way.

edited 31st Jan '11 9:37:59 PM by eX

I would not say that anything you say your parents told you is a lie.

Anything is possible! The world is awesome! Kick reason to the... okay you get my point.

I'll probably try to explain much of the evils of the world to my child, so he or she is prepared for them. But I'll only attempt to explain things that I think they will understand.

Yes, we have water down the truth to a certain extent. They don't really know enough to handle everything. But at least give the facts to them if they ask. Don't just answer with, "Susie, everyone's special, including you, and everything will be fine and dandy."

edited 31st Jan '11 9:42:18 PM by snowfoxofdeath

Huh, my parents always told me that everyone in this world is an evil bastard and the only ones you can trust are your family, and my grandma always told me that everyone always says bad things about you behind your back and that everyone always wishes you ill. Once I grew up, I realized that the world is much more complicated than that, and in many ways, much better than that (Which is why you should be optimistic and totally reach for your dreams!).

With me it'll be more like "You make yourself special, or you can just be a face in the crowd, it's all about what you do that makes that happen."

Obligatory Paul Graham link.

@Barkey: That's a good way to go. I'll say something like "Everyone can be special, but the only way you can make that happen is to work hard at being an exceptionally good person." I'll also tell them that not everyone is a good person, and I'll try to cultivate a good BS detector in them and eradicate doormat tendencies that might leave them vulnerable, but I'll also be sure to mention that constantly being paranoid is not a good way to live, and you have to trust somebody - just make it someone worthwhile.

Edit: From that article: "Life can be pretty good at 10 or 20, but it's often frustrating at 15." Quoted for effing truth.

edited 31st Jan '11 9:58:27 PM by OnTheOtherHandle

I am reminded of Death's little speech at the end of Hogfather. The bit about how you have to tell children small lies, so that as an adult they can believe the big lies, like truth, justice and mercy. He was talking about Santa and the like, not what we're talking about, but I think it makes sense.

So the gloss will be rubbed off your ideals when you grow up. Doesn't mean imparting them in the first place is wrong.

Well, I think it's hard to apply a universal rule in this case. Parents might not give any sort of moral or political education to their child, and the child could still grow up to be a highly moral and upstanding citizen. But generally, lying is bad and is costly. If you don't want to teach your kid about genocide and war and so on, just don't talk about it. They'll learn about it eventually on the news anyway. You don't want to give them a false impression of the world that doesn't exist.

I've always been rather peeved by this "follow your dreams" business. What are those of us who don't have dreams supposed to do with our lives? Apparently there's no fallback option for people who can't come up with anything. My parents seemed to figure I'd just wake up one day passionate about something. They didn't say anything about how to develop a sense of direction or identity, and they didn't say anything to prevent me from feeling inferior to all the people around me who already had various interests or ideals they were enthusiastic about.

@ OP, yes.

We do live to children yes, and it is wrong because we think it is right.

When it comes to stuff they don't understand, just don't tell them. Better than to lie to them. Hell, be upfront from the start and say "I can't quite explain that now". Better yet, make it a hook to convince them to learn: "Tell you what, son, as soon as you understand <insert necessary development here>, I can explain this" if you can pull it off.

Yes we lie to children.

Is it right? For the most part it isn't. I want to convey to my children that life is complex. Life isn't full of unicorns and lollipops, but it isn't a terrible curse either. If there's something I don't know that they ask me then I'll tell them I honestly don't know.

Some omissions may be necessary but we should at least try to avoid it. My parents were pretty straight forward with me (e.g. no lying about undead great grandmas) but I still haven't heard the sexual facts speech. I mean, I know the details but where did they come from? Did I get the whole thing from the grapewine?

Grapevine, hon. Depends on how old you are. Once you hit puberty it's pretty much instinct, or at least it was for me.

Funny, I WAS taught about genocide and the like at age five.

I was educated mostly by my uncle Rocky- his position is pretty much 'if you are mature enough to ask the question, you deserve to know the answer.' So when I asked about who the hell was Hitler and why did he start World War Two, I was taught.

My moral upbringing was basically this: "Nine out of every ten people you meet will stab you in the spine for $5. If you want to get ahead in life, you have to be twice as ruthless and six times as skilled as they are."

As I got older, I found out that my grandfather is just a xenophobe and that shit's not quite so bad. Yeah, there are tons and tons and tons of dickbags, but there are also lots of people who are genuinely pretty cool.

edited 1st Feb '11 7:56:02 AM by Diamonnes

Yeah, the physical basics. But I got the stuff about condoms and not getting pregnant from kissing, too. A Nd I'm positive I never had any kind of basic explanation about that from anywhere.

Well, if you're even mildly intelligent you can figure both of those out on your own. I did <<

I was fairly sheltered as a kid, in the sense of being exposed to violence and sexuality, and I mainly learned through The Talk with subsequent followup inquiry on my own. But I was never denied any knowledge I expressed an interest in, and I'm raising my son in more or less the same way. If he asks a question I explain as much as I think he can handle, which I can usually figure out by the questions he asks in response.